Nudity and Sin

[Liza_Do_A_Lot]

At St. Mary's we're blessed to have a very "nice" cry room.... it's part of the choir loft, and is glassed off from the chapel, with pews, kneelers, a speaker feed from the priest's microphone, etc. Therefore women aren't "excluded," and yet they have plenty of modesty to nurse, since nobody is going to be twisting their head around backwards at a very odd angle to see the ladies, the glass is reflective, etc.

Sounds like the panda enclosure at the zoo...

That is EXACTLY how I feel in our crying room.  I have been tempted to put a sign on the glass window......"LIVE ANIMAL ENCLOSURE - FEEDING TIMES - 8AM & 10AM "

[Clare]

Eg, killing is always wrong, a priori, but self-defense is an argument from experience due to the situation.

Actually, killing is not wrong a priori, otherwise it would never be ok! The state may kill. People may kill in self-defence. If killing were wrong a priori, surely the teaching that "the end does not justify the means"/"it's never permissible to do evil that good may come of it" would come into play even in self-defence situations. Murder is always wrong. And, as I understand it, the Commandment is really "Thou shalt not murder".

2) I think of the situation of breastfeeding like this, considering Mass is only maximum two-hours long, breastfeeding should and can be avoided. p

Breastfeeding isn't wrong a priori!

If it is necessary during mass, (cranky, hungry baby) and it can't have been prevented etc, then I suggest the use of a bottle, but if there is an issue with the temperature of the bottle etc., then the mother could withdraw to a cry-room or other place to do it. If none of these precautions are available then she can just do it discreetly.

What would Our Lady do? Bottle-feed? Though I guess, her baby was probably rather more co-operative than most!

I think there are a few issues that make people uncomfortable with public breastfeeding and these are:
-breastfeeding, like other bodily functions, by their nature are private and therefore people rightly have an uneasy feeling about it when displayed in the public sphere, and especially in a Church.

Has breastfeeding always been private, or are the hangups about it peculiar to our era and civilisation?

-breastfeeding is generally a distraction for the mother away from prayer and paying attention at mass, so for the mother's spiritual welfare, should be avoided - if possible.

Being stuck in a crying room with a crying baby would be more of a distraction from prayer! Breastfeeding is actually quite relaxing (once you've got the hang of it), and it shuts the baby up too!

All this having been said however,
As a church that encourages people to have large families, and especially as traditional catholics in general hold up the large families in our chapels as 'badges of honor" and rightfully so, i think that if breastfeeding bothers someone they should just try 'get over it'  and be glad someone is having children these days.

That's more like it!

Clare.

[Liza_Do_A_Lot]

Well i would like to enter this discussion by making a few points -

1) as this discussion is based on the appropriateness of an action this falls under the category of morality. I do not think that arguments from experience, such as "as a mother..." or "you obviously do not have children..." give any more or less weight to the point one is trying to make.

One can assume that you have are neither......

Whether something is practical or not has nothing to do on whether it is right or not. As Catholics, we should know this. Experience can only assist us is discussing one's moral responsibility, not the actual rightness or wrongness of it. Eg, killing is always wrong, a priori, but self-defense is an argument from experience due to the situation.

2) I think of the situation of breastfeeding like this, considering Mass is only maximum two-hours long, breastfeeding should and can be avoided. Says one who has never fed a baby in his entire life....If it is necessary during mass, (cranky, hungry baby) and it can't have been prevented etc, then I suggest the use of a bottle,  Did you not read my comment on this above.....have you heard of Mastitis before? but if there is an issue with the temperature of the bottle etc., then the mother could withdraw to a cry-room or other place to do it. If none of these precautions are available then she can just do it discreetly. This comment I do agree with.

I think there are a few issues that make people uncomfortable with public breastfeeding and these are:
-breastfeeding, like other bodily functions, by their nature are private and therefore people rightly have an uneasy feeling about it when displayed in the public sphere, and especially in a Church.  Are u comparing breast feeding with using the toilet?

-breastfeeding is generally a distraction for the mother away from prayer and paying attention at mass, so for the mother's spiritual welfare, should be avoided - if possible.  

So does this also include not disciplining your children during mass, we just let them run wild and jump up and down in the pews......HOW MANY MOTHERS HERE EVER GET TO PRAYER AND USE THEIR MISSAL AT MASS......SO MUCH FOR OUR SPIRITUAL WELFARE

-little children, in general are a distraction for parents, so i think that as canon law doesn't make it mandatory for small children to attend mass, that parents might consider leaving them with a babysitter so that they can have a more focused time at mass, and in this way the breastfeeding issue might be avoided. (however i realize this isn't possible for most families.)  What baby sitter?  Most of the baby sitters in our parish would go to mass with their families.  Besides, you should attend mass as a family....."The family that prayers together, stays together".  I know some families that travel 2hrs one way to attend mass.  Do you expect them to leave their babies at home?  A baby needs their mother.  It sounds like you might like this saying..."Children should be seen and NOT heard"!, but perhaps we will rephrase it for you.........."children should NOT be seen or heard".

All this having been said however,
As a church that encourages people to have large families, and especially as traditional catholics in general hold up the large families in our chapels as 'badges of honor" and rightfully so, i think that if breastfeeding bothers someone they should just try 'get over it'  and be glad someone is having children these days.  This is the second thing you have said that I can agree with.

[JamesTheYounger]

I think it must be accepted that breastfeeding is extremely natural and maybe for us men it is hard to see that this is something that for a woman is completely natural.
Even while we assist at the Sacrifice of Calvary we must not abandon what our vocations demand of us.
I have said this before in this thread, but I feel the need to reiterate that breastfeeding is beautiful (of course I mean when done humbly, discretely as any truly feminine woman would).
It is the place of no man to say that this is wrong.

[NathanSoc]

Stop right there!!!

I just have to refill my pop corn bucket...

So where are we up to now...

For a start we have DominusTecum who states that his priest has made a definitive pronuncement, but apparently that's not really good enough for Eric

So in conclusion, if it were my call, I'd disagree with Father. However, I can't very well do that since he made the statement, and I don't know what reasons he has to back it up. For all I know, he's right.
 
Well, that's most Catholic of you Eric.
 
While apparently having a very "nice" cry room is not good enough for Marty who when it comes to wetnursing suddenly seems to equate Churches with zoos, which, caps lock at the ready, Liza concurs certain that she really is like some sort of panda when she's in the cry room. But not Clare, she doesn't think she's like a panda, she thinks she's just like Our Lady no less

What would Our Lady do? Bottle-feed? Though I guess, her baby was probably rather more co-operative than most!
 
Where would we be without emoticons, I wonder? How could we communicate our outrage and express our grief?

But I think the icing on the cake so far, has arrived with dear James, who has come to the conclusion that if something is natural therefore it is also good.
But moreso that It is the place of no man to say that this is wrong which is a stroke of genius when you consider that the Pope is usually a man and this is a Catholic forum, a Traditionalist Catholic forum. (Nice touch with the pious phrasing too).

OK, I have my pop corn ready now, never mind this interval, it's on with the show folks and please don't spare hysteria.

[ErinIsNice]

What if priests disagree?  I know many priests (traditional) who would disagree with the priest mentioned previously.

[Clare]

But not Clare, she doesn't think she's like a panda, she thinks she's just like Our Lady no less

What would Our Lady do? Bottle-feed? Though I guess, her baby was probably rather more co-operative than most!

 Yes, the bit in italics is what I wrote, but I fail to see how that conveys the message that I think I'm "just like Our Lady"!

But moreso that It is the place of no man to say that this is wrong which is a stroke of genius when you consider that the Pope is usually a man and this is a Catholic forum, a Traditionalist Catholic forum. (Nice touch with the pious phrasing too).

Ahem, and has any Pope pronounced on the subject of breastfeeding at Mass?

Clare.

[JLeigh]

What if priests disagree?  I know many priests (traditional) who would disagree with the priest mentioned previously.

Same here. We have no crying room in our church, so the priest has made it very clear that the women shouldn't feel uncomfortable nursing during mass.

[NathanSoc]

But not Clare, she doesn't think she's like a panda, she thinks she's just like Our Lady no less

What would Our Lady do? Bottle-feed? Though I guess, her baby was probably rather more co-operative than most!

 Yes, the bit in italics is what I wrote, but I fail to see how that conveys the message that I think I'm "just like Our Lady"!

But moreso that It is the place of no man to say that this is wrong which is a stroke of genius when you consider that the Pope is usually a man and this is a Catholic forum, a Traditionalist Catholic forum. (Nice touch with the pious phrasing too).

Ahem, and has any Pope pronounced on the subject of breastfeeding at Mass?

Clare.

Oh no. Don't involve me Clare. I've surrendered. I'm a non-combatant. I'm here only to view... and may be to write a review... haven't decided how many stars yet.

[miss_fluffy]

It's been a long time since I've been to Europe, but when I was there, I saw breasts and breastfeeding everywhere.  Breasts were not sexualized so much there, and it would be very common to see a woman sunbathing with her top off anywhere, not just on a nude beach.

If it were left up to the Pope, I'd imagine he'd think it was a strange question, as women in Europe breastfeed wherever and whenever they like.