Church with protestant friend?

[CarolusMagnus]

Ok here is a prayer which by praying it has brought at least one soul out of the darkness of Protestantism into the light of Chrsit present in the Catholic Church, get him to pray this every day and his conversion may one day come.

God of all goodness, Almighty and Eternal Father of mercies, and Saviour of mankind; I implore Thee, by Thy Sovereign goodness, to enlighten my mind and to touch my heart, that, by means of true faith, hope and charity, I may live and die in the true religion of Jesus Christ.  I confidently believe that, as there is but one God, there can be but one Faith, one religion, one only path to salvation, and that every other path opposed thereto can lead but to perdition.  This path, O my God! I anxiously seek after, that I may follow it and be saved.  Therefore I protest before Thy Divine Majesty, and I swear by all Thy Divine Attributes, that I will follow the religion which Thos shalt reveal to me as the true one, and will abandon, at whatever cost, that wherein I shall have discovered errors and falsehoods.  I confess that I do not deserve this favor, for the greatness of my sins, for which I am truly penitent, seeing they ofend a God Who is so good, so holy, and so worthy of love; but what I deserve not I hope to obtain from Thine Infinite Mercy; and I bessech Thee to grant it unto me through the merits of that precious Blood which was shed for us sinners by Thine only Son, Jesus Christ our Lord, Who liveth and reigneth foreever and ever.  Amen.

[NorthernTrad]

I have a protestant friend at work. He told me that he would go to a Catholic Mass with me if I go to a Baptist service with him. While I would LOVE for him to see a Catholic Mass, I don't think I can go to his Baptist service. If I'm correct, the Church doesn't allow Catholics to attend other services (except for weddings and funerals, etc.). What's a good way for me to explain this to him?

Pulling out my trusty pre-Vatican II manual, Moral Theology by McHugh and Callan, I find that it's not quite that simple:

966. It is unlawful for Catholics to assist [even] passively at non-Catholic worship, unless there are present the conditions requisite for performing an act that has two results, one good and the other evil (see 104); for even passive assistance [i.e., mere attendance without any active participation] frequently involves sin.

(a) Hence, the assistance itself must be really indifferent, that is, it must be a merely passive presence without any active participation in the service. Examples: A person who stands in the rear of a Quaker meeting house as an onlooker assists passively; but one who sits quietly among the others present, as if in meditation, assists actively[!]. A person who sits in a pew during a revival in order to see what is going on, assists passively; but, if he joins with the congregation in bowing, groaning, ec., he assists actively.

(b) The evil effect that may result from assistance (such as scandal and danger of perversion) must not be prior to the good effect; otherwise, evil would be done for the sake of good. Examples: Titus, a non-Catholic, goes to Mass as a spectator, with his Catholic friend Balbus. He then asks Balbus to assist as a spectator at the services of his denomination, and thus see for himself that the latter is better. Balbus, in order to be courteous, consents. Here Balbus aims to show politeness, which is good, but the means he uses--namely, the impression he gives that he is not convinced of the superiority of his own religion--is bad.

(c) The evil effect (i.e., remote danger of perversion, unavoidable scandal) must not be intended or approved, but only permitted. Example: Caius, a Catholic public official, has to attend funerals and weddings in Protestant churches as a mark of the public respect for notable persons. He knows that a few will take scandal at his action, but he wishes only to do his duty as an official, and not to offend anyone (see on Scandal).

The main point here is that attendance or non-attendance at non-Catholic services is not governed only by a mere regulation that the Church could have made and the Church could change, such as "you may attend Protestant weddings and funerals, but no other Protestant services" (which would be a regulation that never really existed). Rather, it's governed by unchanging moral principles--for example, that it's wrong to mislead people who have a right to the truth.

Now, if your Baptist friend would agree to attend a Catholic Mass only if you would attend a Baptist service, then it's highly unlikely that he has any genuine interest in the Catholic Church, and highly likely that he's hoping you'll decide that his Baptist sect is better. You should not be like Balbus in the example above; you should not mislead him into thinking you might actually come to that conclusion. In that event, it would probably be a waste of your time (at best) to attend the Baptist service even if there's no danger that you'll really decide his Baptist sect is better, and it would be far worse than a waste of time if there is any such danger.

On the other hand, if you had some sufficiently good reason for observing what happens at a Baptist service, it might be all right for you to go, though not to participate. In that event, you should make sure you know what the sufficiently good reason is ahead of time. You might say something like this to your Baptist friend: "If you're interested in the Catholic Church, I'd be glad to have you come to Mass with me. Now, why would you like me to go to the Baptist service with you?"

Blessings,

Don McMaster

 

Thanks!  I stand corrected in my previous assumptions.

[FlosCarmeli]

Yes, just reiterating what I said on antoher forum. Those crazy neo-cons think that after reading redintegratio from vatican II that you can pray with anyone, anytime, anywhere. I am really grateful for this thread, it just  solidifies what I always thought was  the best thing to do further, which is  to never go!

[StephenF]

Some years ago, I was dating a very devout Baptist girl and she asked me to take her to Mass.  I took her to the local parish in her neighborhood, far from my own parish and I was embarrassed by the Novus Ordo none sense  and the total lack of reverence and the lamentably banal sermon and the bad music and she told me that she "didn't get anything out of it".    I've had that experience in many a diverse parish.  I would be there and ask myself, "are these people Catholic?  We have two generations that are unchurched, untrained and ignorant of their own religion.  We have a mountain to climb.   

[ILikeAugustine]

Speaking of "good reasons":

This past semester, my Christian theology course (at a non-Catholic university) was assigned a paper which required attendance at a Byzantine Rite liturgy.  Seeing as how there are no Eastern Catholic churches in the reasonable vacinity of my school, I had to attend an Orthodox liturgy.  Would this be considered sinful even under such a circumstance?

Additionally, I felt that it was necessary to participate somewhat in the form of kneeling during the consecration since it's my understanding that it is a valid consecration, albeit illicit.  Am I mistaken in my reasoning? 

[PaxVobiscum]

I have a protestant friend at work.  He told me that he would go to a Catholic Mass with me if I go to a Baptist service with him.  While I would LOVE for him to see a Catholic Mass, I don't think I can go to his Baptist service.  If I'm correct, the Church doesn't allow Catholics to attend other services (except for weddings and funerals, etc.).  What's a good way for me to explain this to him?

I think he'd only be attending Mass in hopes that the Baptist service would "save" you.  Baptists are always looking to "save" Catholics and other non-Baptists.  Most are very anti-Catholic.

Funny story: a Catholic friend of mine was on a business trip with another woman, who is Baptist.  The Baptist agreed to go to Mass with my friend.  This was a Novus Ordo Mass, all in English.

Afterwards, my friend asked the Baptist how she liked the Mass and she said "Well, of course, I couldn't understand the Latin."      

Somehow, I think her ears were shut during the entire Mass, don't you?

I'm afraid your friend wouldn't get anything out of Mass, either, except perhaps things he'd misunderstand, perhaps deliberately, and report to his fellow Baptists.  
For example, he sees someone lighting a candle and praying at a side altar and interprets this as worshipping statues, or he reports on the big crucifix in the altar or on how the Stations of the Cross don't include the Resurrection and thus Catholics don't believe in the Resurrection.  

The sermon doesn't take up most of the Mass and doesn't include numerous "As Galations 3:4 tells us" references so Catholics don't care about the Bible.  Catholics don't carry their Bibles to Mass and follow along with the readings (ignoring the fact that they can follow along in their Missals and that some prefer to listen without reading along) and therefore don't care about the Bible. (Baptists would be looking up all the Scriptures the preacher refers to during the sermon in their Bibles, too.)  Only the priest drinks "the wine" and that's why so many priests are alcoholics and child abusers.  And so on and so forth!  

[Archbishop_10K]

I can not believe that any Catholic under any circumstances what so ever would attend heretical services. "On a monthly basis" - you have got to be out of your mind. You make yourself guilty of their crimes by concent, by silence and by partaking.

If these disadents don't want any part of Our Lords Church then that is their choice. That is no reason for you to cast yourself in to the gutter and as a consequence in to the pit with them.

I am not criticising the question, quite the opposite. But what I will question is the offering of absolute scandal by publicly admitting to partaking in such disgraceful false ecumenical behavior.

"passive observance"

Fair dinkum, this has just about got to be it for this little black duck - what a nut 'ouse.

I also get converts to the Catholic faith on an almost monthly basis that way. The few who don't convert nevertheless invariably walk away with a deep respect for the Catholic Church and traditional worship.

How would I be "guilty of their crimes by concent, by silence and by partaking"? I always let my Protestant friends know exactly why I think their sects are heretical, why I can't go if it's at the same time as my Mass, and why I won't receive Communion or sing or do anything else at their liturgies. I also spend a couple hours the day before I take a Protestant friend to Mass by explaining to him or her the theology of the Mass, the Real Presence, the significance of the Latin language, the history of Gregorian chant, why the priest does this or that... basically, a crash course in traditional Catholicism. After attending their church's services, I give them a critique of the pastor's doctrinal errors in his sermon, and a few other notes.

[DaveC]

Honestly, I've seen the Holy Mass change hearts and minds.  If it were someone that I thought was serious enough about Christianity...I'd sit through their preaching service in order to get them to go to Mass.

Their services are nothing.  They are held in empty buildings.  The Mass is everything...even people who refuse to accept it are aware, on some level, that It is the real deal.

The few Protestant 'services' I've been to didn't even contain a thought or word against Catholic Doctrine...they're not usually in depth enough to scratch that surface.

That being said, I wouldn't make it a habit of doing this type of exchange...unless you start getting a really good conversion rate, haha ;)   And of course it doesn't fulfill Our Sunday obligation.

[miss_fluffy]

Katie,

For what it's worth, if your friend does agree to go to a TLM with you be warned.  I took my brother to one and felt rather heartbroken because he just acted like a tourist.  I mean, he was respectful and all, but it was just clear that he was interested in a scientific, uncaring kind of way, and it really bothered me.

I was surprised at my reaction because I was so excited when he first expressed an interest in attending with me.

[Archbishop_10K]

Honestly, I've seen the Holy Mass change hearts and minds.  If it were someone that I thought was serious enough about Christianity...I'd sit through their preaching service in order to get them to go to Mass.

Their services are nothing.  They are held in empty buildings.  The Mass is everything...even people who refuse to accept it are aware, on some level, that It is the real deal.

The few Protestant 'services' I've been to didn't even contain a thought or word against Catholic Doctrine...they're not usually in depth enough to scratch that surface.

That being said, I wouldn't make it a habit of doing this type of exchange...unless you start getting a really good conversion rate, haha ;)   And of course it doesn't fulfill Our Sunday obligation.

That's what I think in regards to Protestant services. They're nothing, the Mass is everything. If my physical presence at a friend's Protestant service is what it takes to get a friend to be open to attending the Mass of ages, then so be it. And so, in response to Daniel, the good shepherd leaves his flock of 99 to go look for the 1. The loving father runs into the burning house to save his children. The dutiful soldier dives into the line of fire rather than leave a fallen comrade behind out of fear for his own life.

And that's precisely what the vast majority of modern-day Protestants are: fallen comrades. All rhetoric about pre or post-Vatican II writings aside, most sincere Protestants (not counting their equivalent of our "Christmas and Easter Catholics") are truly seeking Christ, but are blinded by the errors made by the so-called "Reformers" five centuries ago. This is a very real problem in my life. I don't have the comfort of being born in a Catholic family. My entire family, parents, uncles, cousins and all, are heretics, and unfortunately, as long as I refuse to engage them on their own turf, it's going to be that way forever (although it's slowly changing, precisely because I'm engaging them). This also goes for most of my friends as, for some reason or another, most people I run into who actually care about Christ and the gospel are Protestants, while the most spiritually slothful people I know and who are too put off by my "religiousness" to be friends with are Novus Ordo Catholics.

And so, CarolusMagnus, unfortunately the dogs and swine here are not the sincere but blinded Protestants. I'd reserve those terms for the generations and generations of Catholics who are born into the Faith and ushered into the sacraments of salvation at grade school on featherbeds, yet are totally apathetic to it.