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Author Topic: For the women ... Do you ever worry about your daughters?  (Read 14758 times)
HMiS
Member

Gender: Male
Posts: 6,172



« Reply #190 on: August 31, 2007, 03:18:PM »

You were NOT one of the young men I was talking about and I doubt Vox was thinking of you, either. It's not wrong to argue a point but some young men are rude to others and also very judgemental about women. No mother, or father, wants their daughter to marry someone like that. At least that's how I feel and my husband agrees.
Rude persons are found everywhere, Paxvobiscum. Among agnosticis, Novus Ordinarians, traditional Roman Catholics, Romanian Orthodox, atheists and Islamists.

I think being rude and judgemental towards ladies is just a sign of immaturity.

I know many traditional men who are very cultured and civilized and form a real team with their wives.

And as to the racist threat, many of trad Roman Catholic young men I know are married to Polish, Thai, Chinese, Korean and African women.

Most of my friends, who are Protestant or agnostic or even atheists (some trads, but not married [yet]), date only white girls and also espouse some sexist notions. These are young men raised according to the politically correct feminist spirit etc. I think that feminist spirit even increased "rebellious" anti-female stereotypes, just to defend themselves from extreme feministic teachers and media influence. It is action and reaction, and stuff.

Those kids I know who were raised in traditional Catholic families and at conservative Reformed or traditional Roman Catholic private schools are far more friendly and respectful while dating young girls than those who went to "mainstream, Enlightened" schools. 

Really, my impression of traditional Catholic young men is much better. Some immature provokers are found everywhere. That will disappear over the years. That is a reason why I presume young ladies tend to like to date young men who are slightly older than them, as males are known to mature only later on.

Well, I am then again "too serious", I guess.
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„Ja, Ja, wie Gott es will. Gott lohne es Euch. Gott schütze das liebe Vaterland. Für Ihn weiterarbeiten... oh, Du lieber Heiland!” ("Yes, Yes, as God wills it. May God repay it to you. May God protect the dear fatherland. Go on working for him... oh, you dear Savior!") - Clemens August Cardinal von Galen, his last words.
HappyWife
Member

Gender: Female
Personality type: Sanguine
Posts: 458


Mommy to two cherubs!


« Reply #191 on: August 31, 2007, 07:17:PM »

Quote from: ErinIsNice
After dealing with the "you're racist" thread, I am even more worried about my daughter marrying a traditional man.  Yikes.

Tell me about it...I haven't even had this baby but if it's a girl...sheesh...
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So what if I wear pearls and heels to sweep my kitchen floor, get over it.
Archbishop_10K
Guest
« Reply #192 on: August 31, 2007, 08:34:PM »

I usually post only when I disagree with someone who I think is erring on the "too conservative" side (like on racial or women's issues), so this forum is the only place in the world that makes me feel like a liberal.


Man, I remember back when I was, and still am, the most terrifying suitor imaginable for my ex-girlfriend's parents. They're anti-Catholic evangelical Protestants, and I had helped their daughter convert to traditional Catholicism, so they banned us from ever seeing each other again. Their prejudices against me were confusing, because they thought both that I was too strict on religion, like a mean trad he-boy, and also that I was too much of an immoral thug (the first time I met her dad, I was unfortunate enough to be wearing a big black hoodie with the word "Rap" on it, baggy jeans and a big chain with a Mercedes Benz logo; I had just moved from the ghetto to the nice part of town and was still adjusting). I think they still resent me because they still think I, err, deflowered their daughter, although in reality, I'm a virgin myself.

I also defied the parents by engaging their daughter without having the courtesy to "ask the father for his permission". I believed having to do so was degrading to my girlfriend because, to me, it makes her sexuality the property of the father, like I have to ransom her from him. I know that if my girlfriend had to ask my mother if she could marry me, I would feel ashamed, as though I were a commodity to be bought or bargained for.
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CaroleK
Guest
« Reply #193 on: September 02, 2007, 07:50:AM »

A couple of thoughts:

HMiS - No.  You are not one of the young men I had in mind when I wrote my post.  I was thinking more along the lines of the men who have told me that I am unable to comprehend the subtle nuances of a conversation because I am a woman.  And a young man who told me that there is no need for college education for women since all we are "good for, really" is to get married and have babies (as though raising children is a mindless pursuit best left to the uneducated).

ArchBishop10K - You wrote:

Quote
I also defied the parents by engaging their daughter without having the courtesy to "ask the father for his permission". I believed having to do so was degrading to my girlfriend because, to me, it makes her sexuality the property of the father, like I have to ransom her from him. I know that if my girlfriend had to ask my mother if she could marry me, I would feel ashamed, as though I were a commodity to be bought or bargained for.

Clearly you are not the parent of a young woman.  Nor are you or have you ever been a woman.

It is not buying the commodity of a womans "sexuality" to ask for the parents' blessing of a marriage proposal.  It is common courtesy and showing respect for both your young lady's parents an your young lady, herself.

One of the things that most touched me about my husband was that even though we were not Christians, I had been married previously (as had he) and we had chosen (in error) to live together ... that he did the "old fashioned" thing and talked to my dad, obtaining his blessing before we got married.

My daughter (age 11) has already expressed a hope that any young man that she were to become serious about would ask her father for permission to marry before proposing.

If I had sought (or insisted my first "husband" seek) the permission and blessing of my parents before marriage I may have saved myself from a horrible situation and mistake of monstrous proportions.

Asking for parental blessings before becoming engaged is an acknowledgment of the accumulated wisdom of the girl's parents and shows them the respect and homage due to them.  To get engaged without such a blessing in foolish and disrespectful.

Your rather "modern" and unsettlingly feminist notions of it being "insulting" and "disrespectful" because it "ransoms her sexuality" is the absurd flight of fancy of a young man trying too hard to say the right, politically correct and social expedient thing.

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Richeldis
Guest
« Reply #194 on: September 02, 2007, 08:51:AM »

Quote from: CaroleK

ArchBishop10K - You wrote:

Quote

I also defied the parents by engaging their daughter without having the courtesy to "ask the father for his permission". I believed having to do so was degrading to my girlfriend because, to me, it makes her sexuality the property of the father, like I have to ransom her from him. I know that if my girlfriend had to ask my mother if she could marry me, I would feel ashamed, as though I were a commodity to be bought or bargained for.


Clearly you are not the parent of a young woman.  Nor are you or have you ever been a woman.

It is not buying the commodity of a womans "sexuality" to ask for the parents' blessing of a marriage proposal.  It is common courtesy and showing respect for both your young lady's parents an your young lady, herself.

One of the things that most touched me about my husband was that even though we were not Christians, I had been married previously (as had he) and we had chosen (in error) to live together ... that he did the "old fashioned" thing and talked to my dad, obtaining his blessing before we got married.

My daughter (age 11) has already expressed a hope that any young man that she were to become serious about would ask her father for permission to marry before proposing.

If I had sought (or insisted my first "husband" seek) the permission and blessing of my parents before marriage I may have saved myself from a horrible situation and mistake of monstrous proportions.

Asking for parental blessings before becoming engaged is an acknowledgment of the accumulated wisdom of the girl's parents and shows them the respect and homage due to them.  To get engaged without such a blessing in foolish and disrespectful.

Your rather "modern" and unsettlingly feminist notions of it being "insulting" and "disrespectful" because it "ransoms her sexuality" is the absurd flight of fancy of a young man trying too hard to say the right, politically correct and social expedient thing.

I kind of agree with both of you! Although I'm not sure that anyone actually 'ransoms their sexuality' or 'commodifies' themselves by allowing parental input -from either family- considering it's one of the most serious decisions anyone makes in their lives.

You do have to make your own mind up about the person you are intending to marry. Had I followed the advice of some of my family I would have made the worst mistake of my life and NOT married my husband. I was marrying him, they weren't, and I knew him better than they did.

Having said that, I listened to what they had to say respectfully, and they respected me for that. Then I married him , which was the right thing to do, and it's another wedding anniversary on Our Lady's birthday.
 
No-one needed to defy anyone, and we all knew where we stood.
I do think that talking to parents really is the right thing to do, or try to. It's at the very least just being polite! You are after all, going to be related to a whole lot of people in law, and it's by far for the best to try to get on with them all!!  

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CaroleK
Guest
« Reply #195 on: September 02, 2007, 09:02:AM »

I agree about the listening respectfully while making your own decision. And about how many people you'll be related to and dealing with for the rest of your life.  When you hear it said that you don't just marry your spouse but the whole family - that's not entirely untrue.

Just to clarify - when I said that by seeking my parents' blessing and approval I might have saved myself from a horrid mistake I meant that by listening to my parents and seeking their counsel I might have thought harder about some important truths that did not occur to me until it was too late.

By eschewing their hard won wisdom and experience I short-changed myself.

It isn't about seeking permission so much as it is about offering the respect due and perhaps learning a thing or two from those who have "been there and done that."

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Spooky7272
Guest
« Reply #196 on: September 02, 2007, 09:04:AM »

Well, there is a difference between asking for the parent's blessing  and asking for permission: the former being good manners as R said; the latter seeming to go with an era when women hadn't any rights at all (voting, owning property etc).
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Archbishop_10K
Guest
« Reply #197 on: September 02, 2007, 09:29:AM »

Quote from: CaroleK
Clearly you are not the parent of a young woman.  Nor are you or have you ever been a woman.


That's true. I admit, I was speaking only from my perspective.

Quote
It is not buying the commodity of a womans "sexuality" to ask for the parents' blessing of a marriage proposal.  It is common courtesy and showing respect for both your young lady's parents an your young lady, herself.


Quote
Asking for parental blessings before becoming engaged is an acknowledgment of the accumulated wisdom of the girl's parents and shows them the respect and homage due to them.  To get engaged without such a blessing in foolish and disrespectful.


Allow me to put some context to this story:

I stopped respecting her parents after I saw my girlfriend for the first time with bruises from her father (who is, of course, an overbearing Asian brain surgeon). Her parents tried so hard to get her into Stanford and an elite education that they beat her for getting less than a 90 on a progress report (not even a final grade). I was turned off by them after I learned that the parents regularly left the kids at home to go to the bars and get drunk, yet they had the nerve to tell their daughter that she couldn't marry a Catholic because the Mass is an act of ultimate blasphemy and papists go to hell.

The parents' criteria for a suitable husband for their daughter was very specific:

he must graduate from an accredited university with a bachelor's degree;
he must show proof of employment and annual earnings of at least $70,000 per year (no one in my family has ever made that much money before!);
and he must be of the evangelical Protestant religion.

And don't even get me started on their discussions about a dowry (coming from the husband, not the wife).

When I engaged my girlfriend, her parents had "excommunicated" me for a year already, and for a year, we never saw each other in person or talked on the phone because she would be beaten if my number appeared on the phone bill. We had to keep our relationship a secret for a very long time.


Back to the point: you may be right that asking for a parent's blessing is better. But I hope my story above explains my disdain for the idea.

And so:

Quote
Your rather "modern" and unsettlingly feminist notions of it being "insulting" and "disrespectful" because it "ransoms her sexuality" is the absurd flight of fancy of a young man trying too hard to say the right, politically correct and social expedient thing.


Now, CaroleK, be fair: I didn't use the words "insulting" or "disrespectful". You can do a word search via Ctrl+F to verify that.

I used the word "ashamed", in application to myself. The reason I used that word is because if I listened to my mother when I was growing up, I wouldn't be who I am today. My mother raised me rigorously in "the pope is the Antichrist and will invade the U.S. with his Jesuit armies and force everyone to worship on Sunday" Seventh-day Adventism, and for years before I converted to Catholicism, I was a youth leader and cornerstone member of that SDA church. After I had discovered the Catholic faith, though, everything went downhill on the home front. I vividly recall one of our theological disagreements which ended in her hitting me on the back with a stick, and breaking the stick!

You see, if I listened to my mother like a "good boy" should, she'd be dictating to me my career as well as my religion, and I'd be going to med school (obviously, my mother is also an Asian nurse, just like my girlfriend's overbearing Asian doctor of a father), even though I'd much rather be a garbage collector than a doctor. She'd tell me who I can or can't marry, what race she has to be, how old, and everything else. Her overbearing nature is one reason I "ran away" (sort of) from home to join the military and live as independent of a life as possible from her.

Quote
because it "ransoms her sexuality" is the absurd flight of fancy of a young man


As I said earlier in this reply, part of the reason I said it "ransoms her sexuality" is because the parents in my case expect their daughters' husband to pay a dowry and meet their ridiculous demands.

I'd also mention here the strange overtones of the one or two times, before my fallout with her parents, when we attempted to do traditional courtship. I went out to a fancy restaurant with her family, and when I saw my girlfriend, she was wearing so much makeup that she looked almost like a different person, and a very low-cut dress with no bra. My girlfriends usually dresses modestly with no makeup; it was her parents that forced her to do that to make her more "marketable".


ALL THAT BENG SAID: it's not my intention to ridicule valid traditions and family values, so in regard to anything I've said which implies it, I take it back.

But as you can also see, I've lived my life as a complete affront to the Confucian virtue of Xiào (filial piety) in order for me and my girlfriend to be good Catholics and make our own life decisions. My experiences have left me with a bitter image of parental demands.
 
Last thing:
 
Quote
the absurd flight of fancy of a young man trying too hard to say the right, politically correct and social expedient thing.

 
Err... sorry?
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CaroleK
Guest
« Reply #198 on: September 02, 2007, 09:40:AM »

Quote from: Archbishop_10K
Quote from: CaroleK
Clearly you are not the parent of a young woman.  Nor are you or have you ever been a woman.

That's true. I admit, I was speaking only from my perspective.

Quote
It is not buying the commodity of a womans "sexuality" to ask for the parents' blessing of a marriage proposal.  It is common courtesy and showing respect for both your young lady's parents an your young lady, herself.

Quote
Asking for parental blessings before becoming engaged is an acknowledgment of the accumulated wisdom of the girl's parents and shows them the respect and homage due to them.  To get engaged without such a blessing in foolish and disrespectful.

Allow me to put some context to this story:

I stopped respecting her parents after I saw my girlfriend for the first time with bruises from her father (who is, of course, an overbearing Asian brain surgeon). Her parents tried so hard to get her into Stanford and an elite education that they beat her for getting less than a 90 on a progress report (not even a final grade). I was turned off by them after I learned that the parents regularly left the kids at home to go to the bars and get drunk, yet they had the nerve to tell their daughter that she couldn't marry a Catholic because the Mass is an act of ultimate blasphemy and papists go to hell.

The parents' criteria for a suitable husband for their daughter was very specific:

he must graduate from an accredited university with a bachelor's degree;
he must show proof of employment and annual earnings of at least $70,000 per year (no one in my family has ever made that much money before!);
and he must be of the evangelical Protestant religion.

And don't even get me started on their discussions about a dowry (coming from the husband, not the wife).

When I engaged my girlfriend, her parents had "excommunicated" me for a year already, and for a year, we never saw each other in person or talked on the phone because she would be beaten if my number appeared on the phone bill. We had to keep our relationship a secret for a very long time.


Back to the point: you may be right that asking for a parent's blessing is better. But I hope my story above explains my disdain for the idea.

Given what you have said about your ex and your relationship with her parents I tend to think that an underlying reason for your disdain for the idea of extending common courtesy to her parents had more to do with the fact that you knew that you would not receive that which you would be seeking.  Thus the expedient thing to do was not extend that courtesy.

Quote
And so:

Quote
Your rather "modern" and unsettlingly feminist notions of it being "insulting" and "disrespectful" because it "ransoms her sexuality" is the absurd flight of fancy of a young man trying too hard to say the right, politically correct and social expedient thing.

Now, CaroleK, be fair: I didn't use the words "insulting" or "disrespectful". You can do a word search via Ctrl+F to verify that.

No.  You're right.  You used the word "degrading."

Quote
I believed having to do so was degrading to my girlfriend because ...

In this context degrading can easily be replaced by insulting or disrespectful.

Quote
You see, if I listened to my mother like a "good boy" should, she'd be dictating to me my career as well as my religion, and I'd be going to med school (obviously, my mother is also an Asian nurse, just like my girlfriend's overbearing Asian doctor of a father), even though I'd much rather be a garbage collector than a doctor. She'd tell me who I can or can't marry, what race she has to be, how old, and everything else. Her overbearing nature is one reason I "ran away" (sort of) from home to join the military and live as independent of a life as possible from her.

Quote
because it "ransoms her sexuality" is the absurd flight of fancy of a young man

As I said earlier in this reply, part of the reason I said it "ransoms her sexuality" is because the parents in my case expect their daughters' husband to pay a dowry and meet their ridiculous demands.

I'd also mention here the strange overtones of the one or two times, before my fallout with her parents, when we attempted to do traditional courtship. I went out to a fancy restaurant with her family, and when I saw my girlfriend, she was wearing so much makeup that she looked almost like a different person, and a very low-cut dress with no bra. My girlfriends usually dresses modestly with no makeup; it was her parents that forced her to do that to make her more "marketable".


ALL THAT BENG SAID: it's not my intention to ridicule valid traditions and family values, so in regard to anything I've said which implies it, I take it back.

But as you can also see, I've lived my life as a complete affront to the Confucian virtue of F (filial piety) in order for me and my girlfriend to be good Catholics and make our own life decisions. My experiences have left me with a bitter image of parental demands

I never said that parents should make decisions for their children.  Nor did I ever say that listening to one's parents or the parents of an intended spouse means that you must do whatever they say.  I  simply said that it is common courtesy to listen to what they have to say with an open mind.  You may well come to a different conclusion and follow a different course.  But you should at least listen with respect.

Quote
Last thing:

Quote
the absurd flight of fancy of a young man trying too hard to say the right, politically correct and social expedient thing.


Err... sorry?

Your comments sound like the type of thing a young man of your age and generation might believe he should say.  It sounded a bit to PC to be fully believable.  As I am sure you are well aware there is far more to a proposal of marriage and marriage itself than there mere possession of sexuality.  It sounds like something from Gloria Steinam.
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Archbishop_10K
Guest
« Reply #199 on: September 02, 2007, 10:20:AM »

Quote from: CaroleK
Given what you have said about your ex and your relationship with her parents I tend to think that an underlying reason for your disdain for the idea of extending common courtesy to her parents had more to do with the fact that you knew that you would not receive that which you would be seeking. Thus the expedient thing to do was not extend that courtesy.


Like Spooky said, there's a difference between asking for a "blessing" and asking for "permission".

Quote from: Spooky7272
Well, there is a difference between asking for the parent's blessing  and asking for permission: the former being good manners as R said; the latter seeming to go with an era when women hadn't any rights at all (voting, owning property etc).


And "permission" was the word I used.

Quote from: Archbishop_10K
I also defied the parents by engaging their daughter without having the courtesy to "ask the father for his permission".


Let there be no question that by "permission", I mean it in the pre-1911 Chinese sense: that the daughter is truly, actually the property of the father, to be given to the suitor which will bring him the most wealth, honor and prestige. I remember the time when, even before the parents forced us apart, they were looking into arranging a marriage for their daughter to a 30-something year old doctor, and she was only 17 at the time.

Back to this:

Quote
your disdain for the idea of extending common courtesy to her parents had more to do with the fact that you knew that you would not receive that which you would be seeking. Thus the expedient thing to do was not extend that courtesy.


Under different circumstances, I would have naturally asked for the parents' blessing. But is it, in fact, a "common courtesy" for me to have asked for the parents' "permission", as though she were a property? Or would it have been better to break her away from her parents' authority?

That's an honest question to you, because I'm still thinking about it myself and if I perhaps made a giant mistake, as young people often do. At the time, though, I did what I did because I thought that the traditional Catholic and chivalrous thing to do would be to free her from her parents and give her a home where she'd be respected as an equal, rather than beaten for choosing to marry a non-Protestant who makes less than $70,000 year.

The reason I brought up the whole story in the first place was because I thought it was related to the larger topic of women who feel objectified by certain trad men who associate old-world "women as property, ideas aren't for women" philosophies with authentic traditionalism. But if it's not relevant, then never mind what I said, and carry on, ladies.


Quote
Your comments sound like the type of thing a young man of your age and generation might believe he should say. It sounded a bit to PC to be fully believable. As I am sure you are well aware there is far more to a proposal of marriage and marriage itself than there mere possession of sexuality. It sounds like something from Gloria Steinam.

LOL, sorry if it came out that way. That definitely wasn't what I had in mind.

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