For the women ... Do you ever worry about your daughters?

[Archbishop_10K]

Of course we all hope our daughters will have the good sense not to marry jerks, but not everyone is blessed with a spouse like St. Joseph!  If St. Monica or St. Rita of Cascia were living among us we might easily characterize them as self-esteemless chicks welcoming ill-treatment from the stupid jerks they married ("Come on girl, are you gonna let him get away with that???"), but the Church reveres them as models of Christian wives.  It seems to me that their humility, patience, gentleness, modesty, docility and holy silence would be perceived as weaknesses nowadays rather than virtues.

Bringing up those two saints makes a good point; however, just because a person is a saint doesn't mean the Church endorses everything they've done or everything about their lifestyle. Personally, if I was a wifebeater or verbal abuser, I wouldn't want my wife to just be quiet and take the abuse. That would be almost like condoning the sin. I would expect her to take a stand, and if that doesn't work, leave with the children until I get my senses back or lock me out of the house. But that's just me.

[DominusTecum]

No one is bashing "trad men"; if the "men" (actually emotionally retarded boys) in question were trad, they wouldn't be bashable. There's nothing "traditional" about the types we're talking about -- i.e., the "ideas aren't for you, silly-mysterious-irrational-yet-somehow-angelic-girl-child -- and neither are vacations, desires, needs, rest, sex, or anything else I, your illustrious leader, who should be obeyed unconditionally (not like how I obey the Pope, and nevermind the rest of those verses about marital sacrifice), don't deign to grant you" types. They're out there. And they have the female counterpart: the self-esteemless chicks with the "Kick me; I wanna be 'like Mary (she was a masochist, apparently)'" signs on their backs. You will usually find them pontificating at various fora about how women shouldn't be pontificating since ideas are not for us.

Hey now, there's got to be a lot more to this story. Do you have personal experience with one of these notorious faux trads?

Sorry Vox, I'm gonna have to second this...

You know well that I don't like jerks any more than you do, but honestly, I've never seen young trad men who act like this, in person. Maybe one or two who said some erroneous things on internet fora, but even then... were they really as bad as the example you cite? I have personal experience in 3 different trad parishes, one of which is comprised of some 2,500 members ........and I, too, worry about how all those good, sweet, trad girls will find good husbands.

The problem, though, in my eyes, isn't that the men are all bombastic, arrogant, self-centered protestantesque cavemen types, but rather that if anything, it's the opposite. There are many trad guys of an age of 18-25 that I've met who are wonderful guys, who love Our Lord and would make great husbands or priests. On the other hand, most of the ones I've met seem to have a "worldly" streak through them large enough to drive a car across. They are probably angels by the typical meaning of the term "worldly," but they're not being measured by the standards of the men you'll find at Wal-Mart, they're being measured as Traditional Catholic young men who have been raised in the faith, and they ought to be providing MUCH better examples than they do.

I can honestly count on one hand the "good, devout, trad" guys I know who are my age, who bound for the seminary or monastery, and who actually care to really learn about their faith and try to live it, other than just going to Mass and maybe confession every so often.

[Sophia]

Hey now, there's got to be a lot more to this story. Do you have personal experience with one of these notorious faux trads?

I've met too many than I'd care to, in person and online.  No, they aren't trads by any real sense of the term, but they will swear up and down that their ideas are the true path.  And Erin is right...you will find them in the NO crowd too, and there are plenty among the fundie prots, where the ideas originated.

[Sophia]

And most of what Vox is talking about refers directly to certain lovely discussions we've had on FE in the past.  Ah yes, I had forgotten about the vacation one.  I've heard priests preaching this kind of thing from SSPX pulpits too- not all of them- not all of the SSPX priests are like that.  I also regularly find these ideas in traditional Catholic publications.  All it takes is one loud mouth with a couple letters after his name, and joe schmo trad catholic male bites it hook, line, and sinker because no one has taught him how to reason. 

Incidentally, I recently heard a sermon an SSPX priest gave about marriage that was very good, but unfortunately, I overheard some young females later talking about how misogynist it was.  They had totally missed Father's point, and were wrong.  It was too bad- they'd heard plenty of that garbage, so they assumed this was more of the same.

[Euphrosyne]

Of course we all hope our daughters will have the good sense not to marry jerks, but not everyone is blessed with a spouse like St. Joseph!  If St. Monica or St. Rita of Cascia were living among us we might easily characterize them as self-esteemless chicks welcoming ill-treatment from the stupid jerks they married ("Come on girl, are you gonna let him get away with that???"), but the Church reveres them as models of Christian wives.  It seems to me that their humility, patience, gentleness, modesty, docility and holy silence would be perceived as weaknesses nowadays rather than virtues.

Bringing up those two saints makes a good point; however, just because a person is a saint doesn't mean the Church endorses everything they've done or everything about their lifestyle. Personally, if I was a wifebeater or verbal abuser, I wouldn't want my wife to just be quiet and take the abuse. That would be almost like condoning the sin. I would expect her to take a stand, and if that doesn't work, leave with the children until I get my senses back or lock me out of the house. But that's just me.

Saying that these models of Christian wives are esteemed by the Church in spite of the way they behaved in their marriages would be like saying the St. Thomas Aquinas is honored in spite of his wisdom and writings, or St. Joan of Arc in spite of being a soldier of Christ.  Whether it's easy to swallow or not, the Church very specifically endorses their heroic behavior in their marriages and holds it up as a model of conduct for Christian wives.  The Church does allow that wives separate from their husbands in cases of serious abuse, but those who choose to persevere are worthy of our admiration, not our sarcasm and contempt (i.e. self-esteemless chicks wearing "KICK ME" signs).  And those who choose to remain in difficult marriages to the over-zealous traditional Catholic men being discussed on this thread will rarely have anything to suffer like St. Monica and St. Rita did.  And yet these saints obtained their husbands conversion by the virtues I mentioned, which as I feared, you seem to consider weaknesses.  You would rather that they asserted their rights by taking off or kicking the losers out.  Instead, they chose to remain, set a beautiful example, pray and do penance, and in quieter moments exert their influence over their husbands to help them overcome their faults.  That was the way they took a stand.  As one little soldier said, "His ways are not our ways." 

[ErinIsNice]

Actually, I would argue that a woman staying in an abusive marriage who has children is committing a sin, because it is a sin to sit back and allow your children to be in danger.  A long time ago things were different-- women did not have the resources to get themselves and their families out of danger.

[MikeSearson]

What's the vacation one?

[Clare]

What's the vacation one?

...There's nothing "traditional" about the types we're talking about -- i.e., the "ideas aren't for you, silly-mysterious-irrational-yet-somehow-angelic-girl-child -- and neither are vacations, desires, needs, rest, sex, or anything else I, your illustrious leader, who should be obeyed unconditionally (not like how I obey the Pope, and nevermind the rest of those verses about marital sacrifice), don't deign to grant you" types...

I think it's "vacations are not for girls".

Clare.

[CaroleK]

Thank you, everyone for their participation in this thread.  You've given me much to think about. 

For the record I have precious little first hand "in real life" experience with traditionalist Catholic men (I've only met a handful of traditionalist in person).  However, those that I have met are married men in their late 30s, 40s and early 50s.  Yet even among them there are some ideas and ideals that I find difficult to accept.  For instance the idea that I should not be encouraging my daughter to go to college to pursue her dream of a career in veterinary medicine because her "job" is/should be to find a good husband and get married or enter a convent.  When I asked, "What if she isn't called to religious life and doesn't find a suitable spouse?" the answer was a series of terse comments that my husband (no mention of me) should choose a suitable spouse for her and failing that then our daughter could live at home and help me take care of the house for my husband.

Hello?  When did I enter the time machine and end up in the middle ages.

I was also once instructed by another traditionalist Catholic man that now that since we had only one child and that she was female I was "wasting time" by homeschooling my daughter in academic subjects since what she really needed to know was how to care for a husband, home and children.

Combining those few personal experiences with some of the conversations I have witnessed and participated in here does not leave me with abundant optimism regarding the possibilities for my daughter's marriage prospects. 

I shall simply continue to do what I have been doing for the past 4 years ... pray for her and her future spouse, if that is the Lord's will.

[Mommie2Boys]

Personally, if I was a wifebeater or verbal abuser, I wouldn't want my wife to just be quiet and take the abuse. That would be almost like condoning the sin. I would expect her to take a stand, and if that doesn't work, leave with the children until I get my senses back or lock me out of the house. But that's just me.

I agree wholeheartedly with you, Archbishop. Personally, if I found out that my daughter (if God ever grants us any ) was in an abusive relationship, I would remove her from said situation with a shotgun pointed at the jerk she married as we backed out of the door. I've witnessed abusive relationships and NO ONE is required to stay in one. If there are children involved, besides the obvious danger to them, it also leads to hatred of marriage, and loss of respect for the "longsuffering" mother who allows them to get hurt either mentally or physically. I don't know if the Church counts it as a sin, but I agree with Erin...if it isn't, it should be.

As for the original topic, I don't have any daughters yet, but I do have plenty of younger sisters, and I do worry for them. I've witnessed and talked to the "he-men" trad boys in our area and it's a bit scary. However, I've also noticed that my sisters are very level-headed and if they meet the "he-man" type, they seem to nod and move on uninterested. They're pretty good at taking care of themselves and not compromising. Also, I met a very level-headed Trad boy myself, so it can be done! ;)