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Author Topic: One of Abp. Lefebvre’s first seminarians mourns the fall of his Society.  (Read 2285 times)
TradCatholicGal
Member

Posts: 217


« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2007, 08:20:PM »

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« Last Edit: June 09, 2009, 05:47:PM by TradCatholicGal » Logged
Bruno
Member

Posts: 187


« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2007, 09:14:PM »

Well said TradCatholicgal

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NorthernTrad
Member

Gender: Male
Location: Maine, USA
Posts: 1,767



« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2007, 09:16:PM »

Quote from: Marybonita
The sedes have elected at least 6 "Popes" in order to justify their position:

Pope MichaeI (also known as David Baldwin), USA
Pope Pious XIII (also known as Lucian Pulvermacher), USA
Pope Hadrian VII (also known as Frances Konrad Schuckardt), USA
Pope Gregory VXII (also known as Gaston Trembley), Canada
Pope Peter II (also known as Maurice Achieri), France
Pope Valeriano (also known as Valeriano Vestini), Italy
Pope Linus II (also known as Victor von Pentz), Great Britain

They are lost and need our prayers.

~In JMJ

You are not describing the average sedevacantist at all here.  Most sedevacantists fully embrace the Catholic faith and believe strongly in the papacy.  They believe that if the Chair of Peter were occupied, then the Modernist heresy that has reigned in the Vatican and world over episcopacy for the last 40 years would not be possible.

This very small percentage of nutballs you are describing are not, technically, sedevacantists at all as they truly believe the Chair is occupied by these men you have listed.
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"I'm back sinners."

“Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ.” - St. Athanasius, AD 373

"It is granted to few to recognize the true Church amid the darkness of so many schisms and heresies, and to fewer still so to love the truth which they have seen as to fly to its embrace." -St. Robert Bellarmine
TradCatholicGal
Member

Posts: 217


« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2007, 10:11:PM »

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« Last Edit: June 09, 2009, 05:47:PM by TradCatholicGal » Logged
Caminus
Guest
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2007, 10:11:PM »

Here is the basic syllogism of the sedevacantist:

The new liturgy of the Consilium is bad,
but the Church is infallible in her discipline,
therefore, the Pope must be a false claimant.

I concede the major and subdivide the minor.  The conclusion is invalid. The minor fails to distinguish between a particular discipline and that which a particular discipline is based.  For example, penance is a good discipline which is based upon divine and natural law.  Therefore, in the abstract, assigning penance is good in itself, though that does not necessarily imply that an unwise particular penance be admitted, even in a large part of the Church.  External and social worship of God in the form of the liturgy is a good discipline and the Church is infallible insofar as she demands this form of worship in public, but that does not necessarily imply that a bad liturgy be tolerated or even de facto promoted by a portion of the hierarchy at a given point in history.  It is not even prescribed de jure, for we have official testimony that the old liturgy was never legally abrogated.  Therefore the sede errs by excess in promoting an opinion that is not sound.  Their opinion of the Papacy is predicated, in part at least, upon another theological opinion.  It is precarious, rash and unjust for they are taking away something that belongs in reality to someone else.     


On the flipside, here is the syllogism of the neo-conservative:

The Church admits the new liturgy as a legitimate form of worship,
but the Church is infallible in her discipline,
therefore the new liturgy must be good for the Church.

Notice the same minor, but forces a different conclusion?
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NorthernTrad
Member

Gender: Male
Location: Maine, USA
Posts: 1,767



« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2007, 10:24:PM »

Thanks for the summary Caminus - the belief in the office, but having a false claimant is what I was driving at.

I think the major error of sedevacantism is that no one but the Pope or a Council has the authority to declair whether or not someone was a false pope, so while we can argue whether or not it's a valid theological position, we cannot say if this is the current scenario.  I'll stop now as I think we may be going into forbidden territory on this forum.
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"I'm back sinners."

“Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ.” - St. Athanasius, AD 373

"It is granted to few to recognize the true Church amid the darkness of so many schisms and heresies, and to fewer still so to love the truth which they have seen as to fly to its embrace." -St. Robert Bellarmine
tornpage
Member

Posts: 300



« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2007, 11:23:PM »

Steve,

Quote
Part of the reason I know in my heart this was from God is that, in my experience, He has a perfect sense of irony. Indeed, it is through a Sede priest that, I believe God has chosen to communicate to me that I belong with Peter in this crisis. Still a Traditionalist, still fighting for Truth, but at the same time united with Rome and the Pope. For where Peter is, there also is the Church, no matter how imperfect and wounded. I finally feel that I have peace
.

With sincerity and humility, you shall find. It may take two steps or two thousand, but the finding is guaranteed.

You build your house on rock, it won't fall.  There is no foundation without  Peter.  The storm may be raging, and Jesus may be sleeping, but He will wake up and the boat will reach the port.  The metaphors are mixed, but the truth is infallible.

Christ be with you, 

tornpage

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"[T]hey receive not the love of the truth, that they might be saved."

2 Thessalonians 2:10-11
Caminus
Guest
« Reply #17 on: September 08, 2007, 09:48:AM »

Quote

You build your house on rock, it won't fall.  There is no foundation without  Peter. 



Christ is the Rock, the man Peter is the Rock insofar as he does the Will of Christ; the object of Faith is not Peter, but Christ, faith does not sift through Peter and then to God.  Don't confuse the man and the office.  There is one Head, Jesus Christ, His Vicar represents Him on earth, and if His representative acts unjustly, then Jesus does not expect His flock to violate their consciences based upon catch phrases.  If we are not free to reject novelty and favor tradition for the good of our souls, then there is something very, very wrong with the moral thinking of catholics.
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QuisUtDeus
Guest
« Reply #18 on: September 08, 2007, 02:56:PM »

To clarify, Vox and I are not Sedevacantists, and this is not a Sedevacantist forum.  Sedevacantists are allowed to participate, but under the following general rule that all members of the forum need to follow.

Sedevacantism, pro or con, is not an allowed topic of discussion on the forum.  It causes too many problems.  There are other forums where this can be discussed if one wishes.

So, this is locked.

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