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Author Topic: Army desertion rates up 80% since invasion of Iraq in 2003  (Read 2835 times)
wolseley
Member

Posts: 658



« Reply #20 on: November 17, 2007, 05:22:PM »

Quote from: Vandaler
Quote from: wolseley
You're telling me that inexperienced draftees are incapable of being trained?

No, I mean that a short mandatory 2 year period in the military barely allows for the proper training that is required for modern counter-insurgency warfare in an urban setting. Do you agree ?

Perhaps.  But maybe if we returned to the tried-and-true method of winning wars by defeating the enemy utterly and completely, and that every servicemember was in until the enemy surrendered unconditonally, I submit that we would both win wars a whole lot more quickly and efficiently, and that the 2-year mandatory period would become moot. 

Quote from: Vandaler
Quote from: wolseley

Is that what you think training in World War II consisted of?
Would you care to provide us with documentation for this interesting hypothesis?

I was exaggerating. Opposing the amount of knowledge required then, compared to now. Do you agree ?


No.  Training in World War II consisted of basic training or boot camp, followed by advanced training in the members' specialty, and then, in the case of members in the combat arms, constant, perpetual, incessant training for the next operation in between actually fighting specific engagements.  WWII soldiers spent twice as much time training as they did fighting. 

As for what you needed to know then as opposed to now, sure, the technology is more complex, but training is training.  Again: if everybody (and I mean everybody) is in for the duration, it doesn't matter.

We need to divest ourselves of this idea that wars are won in six months, or we give up and go home.

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The greatest American disaster of the 21st century occured not on Spetember 11, 2001, but on November 4, 2008.
newtolatin
Member

Posts: 1,069


« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2007, 07:07:PM »

There are a few things this article leaves out: that the rate is still less than 1% (.9%); that most of those deserting are more recent entrants into the Army; and that the other means for getting out of the Army are being used at much lower rates.
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Other ages... are prone to faction, and it is our business to inflame them. Any small coterie, bound together by some interest which other men dislike or ignore, tends to develop inside itself a hothouse mutual admiration, and towards the outer world, a great deal of pride and hatred which is entertained without shame because the 'Cause' is its sponsor... Even when the little group exists originally for the Enemy's own purposes, this remains true.... The Church [H]erself is, of course, heavily defended... but subordinate factions within [H]er have often produced admirable results, from the parties of Paul and Apollos at Corinth down...." —The Screwtape Letters; number 7. C.S. Lewis
newtolatin
Member

Posts: 1,069


« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2007, 07:08:PM »

As to universal service: I think it would work if it were rather like the Swiss system: all men enter the military, but after a certain amount of time, they are on reserve, rather like National Guard, and they have to keep up and update their training, etc.
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Other ages... are prone to faction, and it is our business to inflame them. Any small coterie, bound together by some interest which other men dislike or ignore, tends to develop inside itself a hothouse mutual admiration, and towards the outer world, a great deal of pride and hatred which is entertained without shame because the 'Cause' is its sponsor... Even when the little group exists originally for the Enemy's own purposes, this remains true.... The Church [H]erself is, of course, heavily defended... but subordinate factions within [H]er have often produced admirable results, from the parties of Paul and Apollos at Corinth down...." —The Screwtape Letters; number 7. C.S. Lewis
Quo_Vadis_Petre
Red Comet

Member

Posts: 3,691



« Reply #23 on: November 17, 2007, 07:25:PM »

Quote from: newtolatin
There are a few things this article leaves out: that the rate is still less than 1% (.9%); that most of those deserting are more recent entrants into the Army; and that the other means for getting out of the Army are being used at much lower rates.

It doesn't leave out your first point:

Quote
Army statistics show about nine out of every 1,000 soldiers deserted during the past fiscal year. That's a 42% increase over 2006.

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"In our time more than ever before, the greatest asset of the evil-disposed is the cowardice and weakness of good men, and all the vigour of Satan's reign is due to the easy-going weakness of Catholics."   -St. Pius X

"If the Church were not divine, this Council [the Second Vatican Council] would have buried Her."   -Cardinal Giuseppe Siri

St. Peter Arbues, pray for us.
NathanSoc
Member

Posts: 684


« Reply #24 on: November 17, 2007, 07:27:PM »

Quote from: wolseley
Quote from: ErinIsNotNice
That's a great idea!  Thousands of husbands, fathers, brothers, and sons can then die overseas in a war they don't support!


So we should only fight wars that everybody supports?  We should take a poll of our military members, and only those approving of the present conflict should go overseas? 

Would a Catholic serviceman be justified in deserting his post if a war was not a just war?

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pander44us
Guest
« Reply #25 on: November 17, 2007, 08:53:PM »

Who's making the determination if its a just war or not?

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NathanSoc
Member

Posts: 684


« Reply #26 on: November 17, 2007, 09:11:PM »

Well, I sincerely hope that no Catholic would volunteer to fight an unjust war, pander. In the same way that I hope no Catholic soldier would necessarily blindly obey orders simply because they came directly from a superior officer (say for example, ordering the shooting of unarmed civilians). Not that an officer would necessarily issue such an order. The American military forces, for example, have a fine tradition of fighting wars with Christian gallantry.

However, having said that, I don't personally believe any soldier should desert his post simply because he no longer believes he is fighting for a good cause and is not prepared to kill or die for that. He still has his duty to perform. And the army has a right to expect that and is justified in court-marshalling and punishing offenders despite the deserter's "conscience" or for whatever other reasons troops desert.

But war, I hope you'll agree, is a bloody business and is not something that should be stepped into thoughtlessly or lightly.
It is the Vatican that usually decides whether conflict is just or not.

But there is a prescient article written by Lew Rockwell from way back in 2000, Catholics, Iraq, and Just War, if you are interested.

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Quo_Vadis_Petre
Red Comet

Member

Posts: 3,691



« Reply #27 on: November 17, 2007, 10:34:PM »

Quote from: NathanSoc

Well, I sincerely hope that no Catholic would volunteer to fight an unjust war, pander. In the same way that I hope no Catholic soldier would necessarily blindly obey orders simply because they came directly from a superior officer (say for example, ordering the shooting of unarmed civilians). Not that an officer would necessarily issue such an order. The American military forces, for example, have a fine tradition of fighting wars with Christian gallantry.

However, having said that, I don't personally believe any soldier should desert his post simply because he no longer believes he is fighting for a good cause and is not prepared to kill or die for that. He still has his duty to perform. And the army has a right to expect that and is justified in court-marshalling and punishing offenders despite the deserter's "conscience" or for whatever other reasons troops desert.

But war, I hope you'll agree, is a bloody business and is not something that should be stepped into thoughtlessly or lightly.
It is the Vatican that usually decides whether conflict is just or not.

But there is a prescient article written by Lew Rockwell from way back in 2000, Catholics, Iraq, and Just War, if you are interested.


I agree with that. St. John Vianney still followed military orders, when he was conscripted to fight in the Napoleonic war against Spain. Of course, it wasn't his fault, but he became a deserter.
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"In our time more than ever before, the greatest asset of the evil-disposed is the cowardice and weakness of good men, and all the vigour of Satan's reign is due to the easy-going weakness of Catholics."   -St. Pius X

"If the Church were not divine, this Council [the Second Vatican Council] would have buried Her."   -Cardinal Giuseppe Siri

St. Peter Arbues, pray for us.
Vandaler
Guest
« Reply #28 on: November 18, 2007, 01:20:PM »

Quote from: wolseley

Quote from: Vandaler
Quote from: wolseley
You're telling me that inexperienced draftees are incapable of being trained?
No, I mean that a short mandatory 2 year period in the military barely allows for the proper training that is required for modern counter-insurgency warfare in an urban setting. Do you agree ?

Perhaps.  But maybe if we returned to the tried-and-true method of winning wars by defeating the enemy utterly and completely, and that every servicemember was in until the enemy surrendered unconditonally, I submit that we would both win wars a whole lot more quickly and efficiently, and that the 2-year mandatory period would become moot.  

Well Ok, if my comparison to WWII is not useful, I'll drop it since it's not essential to make my point.

From my read of your response above, you do agree with me to an extent under the current conditions and strategic goals.  It's not really fair for you to transform the conditions to a new fictitious  mission to make your point stick now is it?


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ggreg
Banned for being an ass and bringing up old things that need not be brought up, even after she was told not to
Member

Gender: Female
Posts: 10,636


« Reply #29 on: November 19, 2007, 07:20:AM »

Quote from: pander44us
Eventually I'll figure out how to use the quotes on here.

In all seriousness, I would not want you programming in the co-ordinates for an air-strike or missile launch !!!

Mandatory military service is a dumb idea.  Even the professional solider comes out moaning and groaning about post-traumatic stress from a 6 month tour.  Imagine the mess you'd have at the close of a war if you sent a bunch of people that didn't want to be there.  Some men like fighting and some don't.  We don't draft people into investment banking or working for the IRS so why the army?

The reality is that we are killing 50 Taleban and Islamic militiamen in Iraq for every coalition soldier they kill.  In any other war in history that would be a whitewash and out media would be laughing at the enemy as the useless disorganized primitives that they are.  But with the liberalism we have today, 100-200 dead soldiers is spun into a huge protracted tragedy.  A plane crash would kill as many people and be forgotten about by the weekend.  More allied soldiers were killed in the first 24 hours of the Allied Invasion of Europe than have been lost in Iraq and Afghanistan to date and that was considered a huge success.
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