V-II documents need correction, not interpretation -- says SSPX

[ggreg]

I also think saying the Holy Father has a "mush mind" is scandalous and is sitting in judgment of the Supreme Pontiff.

Well don't blame me.  Bishop Fellay and Bishop Williamson have said as much in their public utterances.  Fellay spoke to Cardinal Ratzinger as well as Arch. Lefebvre and Fellay recounted how Ratzinger described "living tradition" which simply means mutable truth.  His entire speech was put out as a podcast.  Cardinal Ratzinger's philosophy is Hegelian and there is no evidence to suggest that has changed since he became the Pope.

We should certainly pray that it might change but facts are stubborn things.  What are you suggesting?  That the Pope is actually a closet Traditionalist who is a "prisoner in the Vatican"

[donumabdeo]

I am sorry I couldn't help but notice the phrase: "Williamson and I are in agreement that it would be difficult to 're-enter' the Church [sic] as it currently is."

Wow, so their Excellencies, Fellay and Williamson are outside the "Church" such that they would need "re-entering"!

It is shocking to see that.  Extra Ecclesiam nullus salus...  I have no idea what they mean by that unless they mean to say that they are in a damning position.  Isn't the Church of modernist Rome the same Church that Christ put on earth?  Anyone have Bishop Williamson's words on the matter?

[Vincentius]

Isn't the Church of modernist Rome the same Church that Christ put on earth?

You aren't serious, aren't you?

[donumabdeo]

Isn't the Church of modernist Rome the same Church that Christ put on earth?

You aren't serious, aren't you?

Man, don't patronize me.  I got confused.  Okay, so the Church of modernist Rome is in schism, since they're all heretics.

edit: Great.

[Vincentius]

Isn't the Church of modernist Rome the same Church that Christ put on earth?

You aren't serious, aren't you?

Man, don't patronize me.  I got confused.  Okay, so the Church of modernist Rome is in schism, since they're all heretics.

edit: Great.

I wasn't patronizing or condescending.  I was letting it be known that heresy and Truth cannot co-exist.  I regret you felt that way.  The Rome of Tradition has not defected nor can she defect.  However, there are elements of modernism running rampart within this structure and these are in command and in power.  It will be a matter of time -- how long, is known only to Providence -- before God the Holy Ghost will reclaim what is His.

[StevusMagnus]

If you look, "re-enter" is in quotes. To me this means the words were used for simplicity's sake. The long standing position of the SSPX that they are inside the Church and Hoyos' admission that they are inside the Church in an irregular situation  has not changed.

[takeiteasy]

If you look, "re-enter" is in quotes. To me this means the words were used for simplicity's sake. The long standing position of the SSPX that they are inside the Church and Hoyos' admission that they are inside the Church in an irregular situation  has not changed.

Yes inside the Church, that is EXACTLY where the SSPX is. It is the ONLY traditional group to accept ALL of the new sacraments as VALID, to accept all the Conciliar Popes as VALID, etc, etc. It accepts the Conciliar Church as the TRUE CHURCH, but there is just some irregularity here. Some uncclearness.

Be careful with that Pius XII quote however, it can be construed as presaging a universal apostasy (and people might think you mean now) while really what is happening now is an irregularity. Valid, but defective.

[StevusMagnus]

Seems re-"integration" not coming any time soon.

Especially if the SSPX insists on adhering to flagrant falsehoods, such as that the Vatican II Declaration on Religious Liberty, Dignitatis humanae, "subjects the Church to the authority of the State."

while the religious freedom which men demand in fulfilling their obligation to worship God has to do with freedom from coercion in civil society, it leaves intact the traditional Catholic teaching on the moral duty of individuals and societies toward the true religion and the one Church of Christ [Dignitatis humanae, 1].

Blessings,

Don McMaster

Pre-VCII teaching already disallowed religious coercion by the state. This is not the novel teaching in DH.

http://www.cmri.org/95prog2.htm

Dignitatis Humanae explicitly states:  

1) “The right to religious freedom has its foundation, not in the subjective disposition of the person, but in his very nature.”

 

In other words, this decree teaches that this right is a natural right, God-given.

 

2) “In consequence, the right to their immunity continues to exist even in those who do not live up to their obligations of seeking the truth and adhering to it.”

 

Consequently, Dignitatis Humanae teaches that those in error still have the right to promote their error publicly.

 

3) “Religious communities also have the right not to be hindered in their public teaching and witness to their faith, whether by the spoken or written word... is to be recognized in the constitutional law whereby society is governed; thus it is to become a civil act.”

 

Furthermore, Dignitatis Humanae teaches that this right to promote their false beliefs is to be recognized by governments in their civil law.

Thus the Traditional duty of the State to support the Catholic faith and disallow public heresy is done away with. Now the Catholic Faith is placed under the state as the state is forced (by DH) to tolerate public error.

Bishop Fellay was correct.

[Robb]

Stevus Magnus,
the Quote of Pope Pius XII is great.  Where did you get it from?  Did he say this in an encyclical or a private comment to somebody?

Bob

[StevusMagnus]

Stevus Magnus,
the Quote of Pope Pius XII is great.  Where did you get it from?  Did he say this in an encyclical or a private comment to somebody?

Bob

http://www.devilsfinalbattle.com/ch4.htm

Pius XII Confirms
the Secret's Prediction of Apostasy

       But perhaps the most remarkable testimony of all on this score, although it is of indirect relevance, is that of Msgr. Eugenio Pacelli, before he became Pope Pius XII and while he was still serving as Vatican Secretary of State during the reign of Pope Pius XI. Speaking even before Sister Lucy had committed the Third Secret to paper, the future Pius XII made an astonishing prophecy about a coming upheaval in the Church:

       I am worried by the Blessed Virgin's messages to Lucy of Fatima. This persistence of Mary about the dangers which menace the Church is a divine warning against the suicide of altering the Faith, in Her liturgy, Her theology and Her soul. … I hear all around me innovators who wish to dismantle the Sacred Chapel, destroy the universal flame of the Church, reject Her ornaments and make Her feel remorse for Her historical past.

       Pope Pius XII's biographer, Msgr. Roche, noted that at this moment in the conversation, according to a Count Galeazzi, “the gaze of the Pope, seen through the lenses of his glasses, became supernatural, and there emanated from his tall and slender body an irresistible mystical force.” Pius XII then said (in answer to an objection from a curial Cardinal):

       A day will come when the civilized world will deny its God, when the Church will doubt as Peter doubted. She will be tempted to believe that man has become God. In our churches, Christians will search in vain for the red lamp where God awaits them. Like Mary Magdalene, weeping before the empty tomb, they will ask, “Where have they taken Him?”²⁹

 

29. Roche, Pie XII Devant L'Histoire, pp. 52-53.