SSPX Position on the New Mass

[Quo_Vadis_Petre]

Today at 12:30 PM
Quo_Vadis_Petre	Rome knows all about the position of the SSPX concerning the Novus Ordo (and even some of their priests), and She refuse to call them heretics, as of right now at least.

Why are radical SSPXers logic so Clintonian?  
Rome's position on advocacy of abdicating on one's holy obligation to attend Sunday mass under the sole justification that the only form being offered locally is the ordinary form is  absolutely clear: heresy, plain and simple.  The Church recognizes both the ordinary and extraordinary as valid forms of the Roman rite and one's holy obligation under the Church is not to attend one particular form or the other, but rather the  Holy Mass,  (in whichever form it is being offered.) To advocate any differently is heresy.  One can proclaim all the advantages of one form of the mass versus the other, but an ordinary mass is just as valid as an extraordinary mass (assuming it is celebrated in a way truly intended by the Church, free from liturgical abuses) and will fulfill ones holy obligation with no caveats; to say otherwise is a lie.

Well, to be accurate, I'm not defending those SSPXers who say going to the New Mass constitutes mortal sin, but they are in the minority. And as MagisterMusicae had shown in another thread, the SSPX bishops do not say anything of the sort.

Also, you didn't hear me defending the radical SSPXers' claims at all, just that they are not in heresy per se; you are basically arrogating to yourself authority which does not belong to you, when you definitely state those people are heretics (when they say they only are the true Church that is a different thing). Another thing: I resent being called "Clintonian." I may be many things, but I am not that thing. I wish you'd give me the benefit of the doubt, especially since you only joined a few weeks ago, and somewhat antagonizing those people attending SSPX Masses in some of your previous posts.

[littleway]

The SSPX has no official position re anything! It's just a collection of purists, refugees and rebels, nothing more or less, and they don't even pretend to have any ultimate authority to state what "the SSPX position" is - in fact, they enjoy the multiplicity of opinions, so long as they are united in their opposition to the regular practising Church. This is why they are considered "schismatic" by the Church - not for letter-of-the-law legal reasons, but because they are essentially protest-ant in a more serious way than most protestants are these days, and they individually (or in small groups) "choose" what they want to believe about "true Catholicism" , which is the essence (etymologically at least) of "heresy".

In short, there IS NO SSPX POSITION on the NOM! There is no SSPX position about anything, except that the current Church is bad. Easy to understand really, so long as you let yourself. Whether or not that one united position is true is up to God. Personally, from what I've experienced of the SSPX crowd, I'm putting my money on the Church to be in some way more right than the "motley crew" of the SSPX, sincere as they may be.  

[Quo_Vadis_Petre]

The SSPX has no official position re anything! It's just a collection of purists, refugees and rebels, nothing more or less, and they don't even pretend to have any ultimate authority to state what "the SSPX position" is - in fact, they enjoy the multiplicity of opinions, so long as they are united in their opposition to the regular practising Church. This is why they are considered "schismatic" by the Church - not for letter-of-the-law legal reasons, but because they are essentially protest-ant in a more serious way than most protestants are these days, and they individually (or in small groups) "choose" what they want to believe about "true Catholicism" , which is the essence (etymologically at least) of "heresy".

In short, there IS NO SSPX POSITION on the NOM! There is no SSPX position about anything, except that the current Church is bad. Easy to understand really, so long as you let yourself. Whether or not that one united position is true is up to God. Personally, from what I've experienced of the SSPX crowd, I'm putting my money on the Church to be in some way more right than the "motley crew" of the SSPX, sincere as they may be.  

I'm quite sorry, but what you state is not true. The SSPX priests nor the laity who attend their Masses are not in schism, according to the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei. And Cardinal Hoyos had stated again and again that the SSPX leadership (at least 3 of the four bishops) was not schismatic. Apparently, you and dmreed are arrogating the authority to yourself to judge concerning the SSPX to be in schism and even insinuating heresy. I repeat: the SSPX never considers the Church to be bad, but many of Her members. They believe the Church will always survive, but that right now, the situation is bad in the Church.

It is getting a bit tiring to hear the Church has considered the SSPX to be in schism, despite all these recent statements by a Pontifical Commission. These accusations just sound like a broken record. SSPX schism this, SSPX schism that!!!! I posted what the Holy See, via the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei, thought of the SSPX these last few years, and the same old accusations pop up, with no basis in fact. The SSPX ARE EXTREMELY DEVOTED TO THE HOLY FATHER, but they are also devoted to Tradition. And they feel, as well as many others, that the Novus Ordo was an unprecedented disaster. Even Msgr. Gamber, a moderate, agreed with their assessment, calling the reforms from Pope Pius XII onward "useless".

BTW, way to go for derailing the thread in this manner: from criticism of the SSPX's position on the New Mass to accusations of schism. I'm sorry about your experience of the SSPX in your area, but it doesn't allow you to generalize about all members of the SSPX.

[littleway]

yay the SSPX!

come on mate, the thread starts off "SSPX position", doesn't it? I responded with a "generalized" comment about the SSPX - ie that they don't have an official position about anything. You respond by saying that you're sorry about my experience of the SSPX in my "area", which only proves what I was saying (thanks).

I didn't "derail" the thread - I short-cutted it. The SSPX has no official "position" on anything except for their opposition to the practising Church.

They don't love the Pope at all really, either as a person or as a state, but what they do love is paying lip service to their love of "The Pope", whatever that means.

The SSPX is a stage show.Throw garlands or tomatoes as you will. I've got a sackful of tomatoes, with the odd flower, to throw.

[katoliko]

yay the SSPX!

come on mate, the thread starts off "SSPX position", doesn't it? I responded with a "generalized" comment about the SSPX - ie that they don't have an official position about anything. You respond by saying that you're sorry about my experience of the SSPX in my "area", which only proves what I was saying (thanks).

I didn't "derail" the thread - I short-cutted it. The SSPX has no official "position" on anything except for their opposition to the practising Church.

They don't love the Pope at all really, either as a person or as a state, but what they do love is paying lip service to their love of "The Pope", whatever that means.

The SSPX is a stage show.Throw garlands or tomatoes as you will. I've got a sackful of tomatoes, with the odd flower, to throw.

in fact, they enjoy the multiplicity of opinions, so long as they are united in their opposition to the regular practising Church.

And I'm sure this "regular practicing Church" is united in their opinions :rolleyes:  Btw, what exactly is this "regular practicing Church" practicing?

[littleway]

The religion of Catholicism, as it always did.

[NorthernTrad]

Any Catholic, especially those who are ordained, who advises another Catholic to stay at home if no SSPX masses are available rather than attending a Novus Ordo mass, is committing severe heresy and should be exposed for this.  Such views clearly are evil and not Catholic.

One could also say that the Novus Ordo is clearly evil as well.  On weeks when I do not have the TLM (about every other week), do you really think I am about to bring my family to the NO, where my children will surely be scandalized by the sick and evil practices and offenses committed there?  I would recommend to those who don't have access to the Traditional Liturgy to stay home rather than attend the Novus Ordo.  Am I a heretic?

[Catholicmilkman]

The religion of Catholicism, as it always did.

Littleway, what is the religion of Catholicism?

[Quo_Vadis_Petre]

yay the SSPX!

come on mate, the thread starts off "SSPX position", doesn't it? I responded with a "generalized" comment about the SSPX - ie that they don't have an official position about anything. You respond by saying that you're sorry about my experience of the SSPX in my "area", which only proves what I was saying (thanks).

I didn't "derail" the thread - I short-cutted it. The SSPX has no official "position" on anything except for their opposition to the practising Church.

They don't love the Pope at all really, either as a person or as a state, but what they do love is paying lip service to their love of "The Pope", whatever that means.

The SSPX is a stage show.Throw garlands or tomatoes as you will. I've got a sackful of tomatoes, with the odd flower, to throw.

Oh, yeah, that 2 million rosary crusade for the Pope, and you throw the tomatoes. Sure, very grateful you are that the SSPX caused the Indult to be finally implemented, and even then imperfectly!! Yeah, they don't truly love the Pope all right, that they didn't rejoice when the Motu Proprio was finally written and promulgated (despite a few problems they have)!! Yeah, you know so much about the SSPX, just because you had a small brush with them in probably one church or so. Looks like it's open season for SSPX bashing, again from one or two people.

Again, your accusations fall flat, without a shred of proof. If they don't really love the Pope, why would Ecclesia Dei Commission refuse to call them formal schismatics? Your culpable ignorance of Cardinal Hoyos refusing to state the SSPX is in schism  (or heresy) is quite astounding. Here again is the letter of the Ecclesia Dei Commission:

PONTIFICIA COMMISSIO
'ECCLESIA DEI'

n. 55/2005 Rome, September 5, 2005

Sir,

Your letter of July 11 arrived at this Pontifical Commission (...), but it has not been answered up to now due to the annual vacations during the month of August.

...

Because your letter actually involves the competence of our Commission 'Ecclesia Dei', we have precised in our letter what follows:

'On the argument presented (that you regularly attend Sunday Mass at a chapel of the Fraternity Saint Pius X) one cannot say but this: the faithful who attend the Masses of the aforesaid Fraternity are not excommunicates, and the priests who celebrate them are not, either -- the latter are, in fact, suspended. Which is why it would be difficult to explain this exclusion by this sole motive, at a time in which the reintegration of this Fraternity to the full communion of the Church is sought.'

The Council for Culture, whose president is Cardinal Poupard, will certainly let you know of his decision.

Receive, sir, my religious regards, [Veuillez croire, Monsieur, à mon dévouement religieux,]

CAMILLE PERL
Secretary

Here is the original letter:




And here's from an article I already posted, but which you refuse to look at (link here):

SSPX Bishops and Priests not Schismatics

  In a much overlooked and little discussed interview published February 8, 2007, in the German Die Tagespost, Cardinal Castrillón said he rejected the term and idea of "ecumenism" from within the Church as a reasoning behind the continuing discussions and open communications with the leadership of the SSPX. Specifically, he said the following:

 

Please accept that I reject the term "ecumenism ad intra." The bishops, priests and faithful of the Society of St Pius X are not schismatics. It is Archbishop Lefebrve who has undertaken an illicit Episcopal consecration and therefore performed a schismatic act. It is for this reason that the Bishops consecrated by him have been suspended and excommunicated. The priests and faithful of the Society have not been excommunicated. They are not heretics.

 

 Again, it bears repeating. The president of the PCED, Cardinal Castrillón has repeatedly stated in at least five separate public interviews in Catholic and secular media that the lay faithful and priests of the SSPX are not schismatics nor in formal schism.

[Quo_Vadis_Petre]

The religion of Catholicism, as it always did.

Yeah, all those ecumenical love-fests with the Orthodox and the Protestants, that is practicing Catholicism, especially when they're not getting them to convert! Not!

P.S. Benedict XVI is different so far, but still most of the Novus Ordo bishops are disobeying him far worse than the SSPX ever will disobey him (which even then, is on disciplinary matters, like the liturgy, and the ambiguity of Vatican II documents). And the SSPX are truly the one group implementing SP, aside from a quite a few good bishops.