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Author Topic: What's the Latin say?  (Read 523 times)
beng
Member

Posts: 19


« on: January 09, 2008, 06:14:PM »

I found this:

Quote
http://www.fatherfeeney.org/other/masonry.html

FREEMASONRY IN THE LIFE AND TIMES OF POPE PIUS IX by Father Leonard Feeney M. I. C. M.


His constant message to his bishops and archbishops was ever the same as the one which he wrote from Naples on December 8, 1849, in his encyclical Nostis et nobiscum:

You must indeed especially see to it that the faithful themselves have firmly fixed in their minds that dogma of our most holy religion, namely, the absolute necessity of the Catholic Faith for obtaining salvation ... that dogma received from Christ and inculcated by the Fathers and the Councils, which is found in the formulas of Profession of Faith in use among the Latins and the Greeks and other oriental Catholics ...



Unfortunately when I checked Nostis et nobiscum at EWTN.com papalencyclicals.net, the quotation is a bit different. It doesn't have the word "absolute," also, there's "doctrine" not "dogma":

Quote
10. In particular, ensure that the faithful are deeply and thoroughly convinced of the truth of the doctrine that the Catholic faith is necessary for attaining salvation.[4]

Footnote 4:
4. This doctrine, received from Christ and emphasized by the Fathers and Councils, is also contained in the formulae of rhe profession of faith used by Latin, Greek, and Oriental Catholics.

Please, please, please someone check the latin. It would be grand if there's "absolute." And it would be even grand-er if "doctrine" is better translated as "dogma."

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aquinas138
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Gender: Male
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 1,600



« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2008, 06:39:PM »

Quote
Speciatim vero procurandum est, ut fideles ipsi impressum in animis habeant, alteque defixum dogma illud sanctissimae nostrae religionis, quod est de necessitate catholicae fidei ad obtinendam salutem.


So we have "dogma" rather than "doctrina," but no "absolute."  Translating "dogma" as "doctrine" is not nefarious - the Latin term "dogma" [acc. to Stelten's Dictionary] means "defined doctrine."  We might prefer "dogma" here, but I think that is being overly picky and making out the word "doctrine" to be less weighty than it is.
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Sicut canis qui revertitur ad vomitum suum, sic imprudens qui iterat stultitiam suam. (Prov. 26:11)

Esse nihil dicis quidquid petis, inprobe Cinna:
si nil, Cinna, petis, nil tibi, Cinna, nego. (Martial 3.61)
kjvail
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Location: Indianapolis, IN
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« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2008, 07:46:PM »

Quote from: aquinas138
Quote
Speciatim vero procurandum est, ut fideles ipsi impressum in animis habeant, alteque defixum dogma illud sanctissimae nostrae religionis, quod est de necessitate catholicae fidei ad obtinendam salutem.

So we have "dogma" rather than "doctrina," but no "absolute."  Translating "dogma" as "doctrine" is not nefarious - the Latin term "dogma" [acc. to Stelten's Dictionary] means "defined doctrine."  We might prefer "dogma" here, but I think that is being overly picky and making out the word "doctrine" to be less weighty than it is.

It doesn't say absolute but defixum translates:
defix.um             VPAR   3 1 NOM S N PERF PASSIVE PPL
defix.um             VPAR   3 1 ACC S M PERF PASSIVE PPL
defix.um             VPAR   3 1 ACC S N PERF PASSIVE PPL
defix.um             SUPINE 3 1 ACC S N                
defigo, defigere, defixi, defixus  V    TRANS   [XXXBO] 
sink/bury/stick/thrust (weapon); fasten, fix, plant, embed; attach/affix;

declare firmly/unalterably; bewitch/enchant/curse (stick pin in wax);

focus (thoughts/eyes); dumbfound, astonish/stupefy, fix w/glance; censure;
defix.um             ADJ    1 1 NOM S N POS            
defix.um             ADJ    1 1 ACC S M POS            
defix.um             ADJ    1 1 ACC S N POS            
defixus, defixa, defixum  ADJ   [XXXFO]    veryrare
motionless, still;


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Pax Tecum,
Kevin V.

"I am a converted pagan living among apostate puritans"
- C.S. Lewis

"In the world it is called Tolerance, but in hell it is called Despair, the sin that believes in nothing, cares for nothing, seeks to know nothing, interferes with nothing, enjoys nothing, hates nothing,
aquinas138
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Gender: Male
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 1,600



« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2008, 08:01:PM »

Quote from: kjvail
Quote from: aquinas138
Quote
Speciatim vero procurandum est, ut fideles ipsi impressum in animis habeant, alteque defixum dogma illud sanctissimae nostrae religionis, quod est de necessitate catholicae fidei ad obtinendam salutem.

So we have "dogma" rather than "doctrina," but no "absolute."  Translating "dogma" as "doctrine" is not nefarious - the Latin term "dogma" [acc. to Stelten's Dictionary] means "defined doctrine."  We might prefer "dogma" here, but I think that is being overly picky and making out the word "doctrine" to be less weighty than it is.

It doesn't say absolute but defixum translates:
defix.um             VPAR   3 1 NOM S N PERF PASSIVE PPL
defix.um             VPAR   3 1 ACC S M PERF PASSIVE PPL
defix.um             VPAR   3 1 ACC S N PERF PASSIVE PPL
defix.um             SUPINE 3 1 ACC S N                
defigo, defigere, defixi, defixus  V    TRANS   [XXXBO] 
sink/bury/stick/thrust (weapon); fasten, fix, plant, embed; attach/affix;

declare firmly/unalterably; bewitch/enchant/curse (stick pin in wax);

focus (thoughts/eyes); dumbfound, astonish/stupefy, fix w/glance; censure;
defix.um             ADJ    1 1 NOM S N POS            
defix.um             ADJ    1 1 ACC S M POS            
defix.um             ADJ    1 1 ACC S N POS            
defixus, defixa, defixum  ADJ   [XXXFO]    veryrare
motionless, still;




Yes, but defixum is modifying dogma (a neuter noun), not necessitate.  Neither Feeney's translation nor the EWTN translation captures both impressum AND defixum.  Feeney has the former and EWTN blends the two.
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Sicut canis qui revertitur ad vomitum suum, sic imprudens qui iterat stultitiam suam. (Prov. 26:11)

Esse nihil dicis quidquid petis, inprobe Cinna:
si nil, Cinna, petis, nil tibi, Cinna, nego. (Martial 3.61)
beng
Member

Posts: 19


« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2008, 06:29:AM »

Thank you.

I was very excited when I read the one from Fr. Feeney. But too bad....


 If the word is indeed "absolute necessity" then it's obviously not the weaker "hypothetical necessity."


It's very unfortunate, I'd say.
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