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Author Topic: Name change?  (Read 13723 times)
McMaster
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Gender: Male
Location: Indiana
Posts: 1,713



« Reply #110 on: March 06, 2008, 07:37:AM »

Quote from: Caminus
I am almost certain that you would, as a good and thoughtful father, not allow your children to attend the masses of a priest who did not wear clerical attire, but rather worldly street clothes, acting in a worldly manner, "for whoever communicates with another who is in sin, becomes a sharer in his sin."


Why is it that you persistently fail to assist your readers with citations to the passages you quote? Is it because, if you did, the readers could too readily see that your quotes don't support your claims? Let's see:

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As was said above (AA. 5, 7), heretical, schismatical, excommunicate, or even sinful priests, although they have the power to consecrate the Eucharist, yet they do not make a proper use of it; on the contrary, they sin by using it. But whoever communicates with another who is in sin, becomes a sharer in his sin. Hence we read in John's Second Canonical Epistle (11) that "He that saith unto him, God speed you, communicateth with his wicked works." Consequently, it is not lawful to receive Communion from them, or to assist at their mass.

Still there is a difference among the above, because heretics, schismatics, and excommunicates, have been forbidden, by the Church's sentence, to perform the Eucharistic rite. And therefore whoever hears their mass or receives the sacraments from them, commits sin. But not all who are sinners are debarred by the Church's sentence from using this power: and so, although suspended by the Divine sentence, yet they are not suspended in regard to others by any ecclesiastical sentence: consequently, until the Church's sentence is pronounced, it is lawful to receive Communion at their hands, and to hear their mass. Hence on 1 Cor. 5:11, "with such a one not so much as to eat," Augustine's gloss runs thus: "In saying this he was unwilling for a man to be judged by his fellow man on arbitrary suspicion, or even by usurped extraordinary judgment, but rather by God's law, according to the Church's ordering, whether he confess of his own accord, or whether he be accused and convicted" [St. Thomas Aquinas, S.T. III, Q. 82, Art. 9].


Until the Church's sentence is pronounced, it is lawful to receive Communion at their hands, and to hear their Mass--in which case it necessarily follows that one does not become a sharer in their sin by doing so. In your haste to grab some language to try to support your claims, did you simply fail to read that part of the passage--or what?

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also from every sort of mind-poisoning that now keeps people away from daily Communion under the pretext of showing due honor and reverence to the Eucharist, as the "poison of Jansenism" did in its day.


Oh dear, I hope this is not an example of that "sound theology" that you are supposedly teaching your children in order to reverse the effects of attending evil liturgies. Quite the contrary really for, "by refusing to hear the masses of such priests, or to receive Communion from them, we are not shunning God's sacraments; on the contrary, by so doing we are giving them honor."


The citation you omitted is "S.T. III, Q. 82, Art. 9, reply obj. 1"--why, that's from the same article, and "such priests" are those who "have been forbidden, by the Church's sentence, to perform the Eucharistic rite"! Wow, you must have been in a really rash rush to rip some snippets out of context and ignore all else! At least, that's the most favorable interpretation of your action--which, of course, we should accept in the absence of proof positive that you were deliberately trying to deceive your readers.

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One can honestly wonder why you would then allow your children to attend a liturgy that was based upon a protestant liturgy [...]


Name one or more Protestant doctrines that you think are unavoidably affirmed by those who attend "NO" Masses and receive Communion at them, and we'll discuss it.

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[...]where Jesus is abused in an obviously sacrilegious manner.


I don't--but I do allow and encourage (though not force) them to attend daily Catholic Masses even if some other people there, most likely through no personal fault of their own, receive Him in a manner that is objectively somewhat lacking in due reverence.

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A fortiori, do we honor Christ more if we abstain from evil liturgies which far transcend the reasons for avoiding an evil priest.


By the same reasoning, this would be true of liturgies that are prohibited by the sentence of the Church, but not of those that aren't. As to whether particular defects turn a liturgy as a whole into an "evil liturgy" that must be avoided, I can see I'm still not going to get to it yet this morning. The basis of what I do say when I say it, I expect, will be in S.T. I, Q. 48, Art. 4, "Whether Evil Corrupts the Whole Good." More soon!

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If you think that doing so is actually Jansenism in disguise, then I really do feel sorry for your poor children; it's obvious that you are either ignorant as to what Jansenism actually was [...]


... or else that you failed to notice how I distinguished the "poison of Jansenism" from the different sort of mental poison by which some people today would try to keep others away from frequent Communion under the pretext of showing due honor and reverence to the Eucharist, as the Jansenists did of old:

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The "poison of Jansenism," which, "under the pretext of showing due honor and reverence to the Eucharist, had infected the minds even of good men" in times gone by [Sacra Tridentina, 8th prefatory paragraph], is not the only poison that keeps people away from daily Communion under the pretext of showing due honor and reverence to the Eucharist. [...]

[...]as the "poison of Jansenism" did in its day.


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[...] or are so malicious towards other parents who take the safer path, which is another principle of moral theology, and do not allow their children to attend such liturgies that you will take no respite from attacking us from any conceivable angle.


You also failed to notice another thing I said above: that, if some Catholics "think it's wrong to attend an 'NO' Mass without strict necessity, and (2) have no strict duty to attend one (which they don't--except, as a rule, on Sundays and holy days of obligation when no other Mass is available), then they shouldn't attend." On the contrary, I object only when they start publicly advocating the poisonous view that it is wrong to attend an "NO" Mass without strict necessity, even if that is the only feasible way to receive daily Communion. [EDIT: In accordance with the teaching of] the Council of Trent and St. Pius X, I also strongly maintain that the safer path is the one in which the great "antidote whereby we may be freed from daily faults and be preserved from mortal sin," Holy Communion, is received every day by all who are rightly disposed.

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You may want to start their sound catechetical lessons with the divine principle of epikia [a/k/a "epikeia" or "epieikeia," S.T. II-II, Q. 120] in the wide-sense which teaches that God will condescend to help us with more grace when through some defect in His Church's ministers and rites, the faithful do not have the opportunity to receive daily communion -- where there is a breakdown in the lower, the higher supervenes.


In this connection, there would be no need, as my family and I do have the opportunity to receive daily Communion (albeit at "NO" Masses) without participating in any sacrilege. But we would be wrong if we thought we could deliberately reject that opportunity and yet get more grace than if we accepted it.

Blessings,

Don McMaster
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Jesus, meek and humble of Heart, make our hearts like unto Thine.
Cessent iurgia maligna, cessent lites; et in medio nostri sit Christus Deus!
Pray for the salvation of the ignorant, and the conversion of huge numbers of sinners!

Yes, I too have a blog--A Blog of Two Popes: St. Pius X, Bl. John XXIII
Updated 2009 May 3
AdoramusTeChriste
Dances with Chopper

Member

Posts: 5,677



« Reply #111 on: March 06, 2008, 08:34:AM »

Quote from: littleway

Some of you guys
should be reading John le Carre novels rather than reacting to stuff that the Church needn't worry about.


If you're implying that some of us don't have enough to do, perhaps you would like to try taking 15 credit hours, work two jobs, serve as president of the honor society on my campus, take care of 3 boys plus counsel their  5 adult siblings of varying ages, plan/attend birthday parties for grandbabies(!), do laundry, cook meals, make the best coffee on the planet, etc. That's what I do and have been doing for quite some time, and quite well as it turns out. Furthermore, "reacting" to issues is not the same as studying or weighing issues for the good of your soul. The days when one could blindly trust that a parish priest is solidly Catholic are over my friend. Most Trads I know are far from reactionary. To the contrary, they take their Faith seriously and their love for the Church is genuine. To imply that people who are passionate about the Faith need something else to do is highly insulting as well as ignorant.

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Politics is politics, people are people, but the Church is guaranteed by Christ Himself. It's not that hard on a spiritual level, but on an intellectual and emotional level you can take it wherever you want. Some such discussions smack of protestant-style sophistry.

I'm not sure what you mean in this paragraph. What isn't hard on a spiritual level? And protestant-style sophistry? That interview I posted is certainly full of it, but I haven't detected any from anyone else. Indifferentism maybe, but definitely not protestantism.

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Put things in perspective a little.

You mean like you are?

Edit to add: The other participants on this thread are, I'm sure, at least as busy as I am. I was just giving an example.

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TRAD UP!!!
S.A.G. ~ Kathy ~ Sanguine-choleric. Have fun...or else.

Adoramus te, Christe, et benedicimus tibi, quia per sanctam crucem tuam redemisti mundum.
To listen to the hymn- http://fisheaters.com/forumpix/adoramustechriste.html

"I am convinced that the crisis of the church which we are living through today was largely caused by the disintegration of the liturgy."              
- The former Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger

"Their cold stares remind me of the neo-cons that just sign up to FE - they are fish, but they are dead." ~ Marty
Catholicmilkman
Guest
« Reply #112 on: March 06, 2008, 05:30:PM »

Quote from: AdoramusTeChriste
Quote from: Catholicmilkman
Quote from: AdoramusTeChriste
Jonathon, there is no point in shooting the messenger. If you don't want to read the interview, don't. But don't castigate others for abhorring the content. It is a fact that protestants served in key roles of the council. It wasn't my idea, nor was it SM's idea to include them. The frankness of the interview is shocking to be sure, but it is nothing new.

I pray Our Lady will lead you to Her Son.
The fact is though, Kathy, that all the non-Catholics observers cannot talk druing the actual meetings of the council. It's not the first time that non-Catholics were invited to a Ecumenical Council. They're all always invited and I believe some were even at Vatican I.
If you read the interview, you will see that there was talk a-plenty between the sessions and the fellow being interviewed actually moved to Rome to be part of all of it. Neither observers nor participants were sequestered for the duration of the entire council, and the observers had much freer reign than in any previous council. This is common knowledge, verified by participants.

Also, if any non-Catholic observers at Vat.I went away proclaiming victory over Catholicism as it had always been known, which is what the partners in the glee-fest above are doing over nouvelle theologie, I would certainly like to hear about.
None of this matters one bit though since General Councils (according to my catechism-My Catholic Church) are protected from erring by the ordinary Magisterium. If you read the interview carefully you will read that H.H. Benedict XVI did not interpret the Council as the nouvelle theologians did, which implies that the council can still has an orthodox interpretation even according to the Protestant. If it can have an orthodox interpretation then it cannot have any real errors can it. Just because Modernists and Protestants may have intentionally made the council language vague and ambiguous so as to be able to interpret it ether way after, does not mean that the council really contains error, especially since ecumenical councils are guaranteed from error. I side on the side of doubt rather than denial first. Both the consequences and reality of real error in a general council have to be considered first and only then should we even attempt to study whether there is really error or not.
I believe it would unprecedented in the history of the Church for a universal ecumenical General council to be first approved and then condemned. Pope Paul VI clearly said that the council was binding (though there were no dogmas defined), would this not mean that a Pope bound the Church to heretical doctrine? I think you know where that leads us.
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AdoramusTeChriste
Dances with Chopper

Member

Posts: 5,677



« Reply #113 on: March 06, 2008, 10:59:PM »

Quote

I believe it would unprecedented in the history of the Church for a universal ecumenical General council to be first approved and then condemned. Pope Paul VI clearly said that the council was binding (though there were no dogmas defined), would this not mean that a Pope bound the Church to heretical doctrine? I think you know where that leads us.

The eighth council (I think) was withdrawn. May it be so with this last one.

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None of this matters one bit though since General Councils (according to my catechism-My Catholic Church) are protected from erring by the ordinary Magisterium.  

As you were shown in this thread, V2 was pastoral, not general. You cannot wish away the words of Pope Paul VI. I saw where you called the council "binding" and I see that a lot from those who strive to pair truth and error. However, as Catholics we are obligated to accept the dogmas of our Holy Faith, not the whims of renegades. Please do not try to convince me otherwise.
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TRAD UP!!!
S.A.G. ~ Kathy ~ Sanguine-choleric. Have fun...or else.

Adoramus te, Christe, et benedicimus tibi, quia per sanctam crucem tuam redemisti mundum.
To listen to the hymn- http://fisheaters.com/forumpix/adoramustechriste.html

"I am convinced that the crisis of the church which we are living through today was largely caused by the disintegration of the liturgy."              
- The former Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger

"Their cold stares remind me of the neo-cons that just sign up to FE - they are fish, but they are dead." ~ Marty
Catholicmilkman
Guest
« Reply #114 on: March 07, 2008, 12:00:AM »

Quote from: AdoramusTeChriste
Quote

I believe it would unprecedented in the history of the Church for a universal ecumenical General council to be first approved and then condemned. Pope Paul VI clearly said that the council was binding (though there were no dogmas defined), would this not mean that a Pope bound the Church to heretical doctrine? I think you know where that leads us.


The eighth council (I think) was withdrawn. May it be so with this last one.
Ephesus, right? I believe Ephesus was never approved first though, it was condemned from the start by the Pope.

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Quote
None of this matters one bit though since General Councils (according to my catechism-My Catholic Church) are protected from erring by the ordinary Magisterium.  
As you were shown in this thread, V2 was pastoral, not general. You cannot wish away the words of Pope Paul VI.
The Council was a general council, pastoral has never on general; a council may be both pastoral and general. The council was clearly an ecumenical council and pastoral though it was not to pronounce any dogmatic definitions. Where does Pope John XXIII or Paul VI say that the council was not a general? I don't see one place.

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I saw where you called the council "binding" and I see that a lot from those who strive to pair truth and error. However, as Catholics we are obligated to accept the dogmas of our Holy Faith, not the whims of renegades. Please do not try to convince me otherwise.
Paul VI at the end of the council clearly said that all it's decrees were binding on all Catholics. Also as Catholics we are obligated (by the First Vatican Council) to submit to the Supreme Pontiff's decrees both on doctrine and discipline. So even if a general council or pope doesn't infallbly defined a dogma, it is still to be submitted to, or you put yourself in schism. Right? What is schism to you? Heresy is denying any defined dogma of the faith, right? More can put you outside the Church then just denying an article of Divine faith, such as not submitting to the Bishop of Rome (like on his decrees on discipline). Is the Pope only infallible on faith? What about morals? Church discipline?
There's a reason why the Archbishop and four bishops were declared only to be in schism and not heresy.
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Quo_Vadis_Petre
Red Comet

Member

Posts: 3,691



« Reply #115 on: March 07, 2008, 12:13:AM »

Quote from: Catholicmilkman
There's a reason why the Archbishop and four bishops were declared only to be in schism and not heresy.

Wrong. The SSPX bishops were excommunicated, but never in formal schism, despite what Pope John Paul II's document may have stated. As far back as Pope Paul VI's time, Rome knew about Archbishop's Lefebvre's opposition to Vatican II.

Sorry, but now you contradict yourself. First, you yourself stated the SSPX bishops to be not in formal schism, but now you do. Unless I interpret your statement wrongly, in which I apologize. None of the SSPX bishops have ever, EVER denied the authority of the Pope.

Also, I think only you and McMaster are the only ones who state opposing the Second Vatican Council constitutes schism (at least materially), whereas not even Pope Paul VI, whatever else he might stated concerning the Council, declared that concerning Archbishop Lefebvre. It seems to me that you're elevating a General Council to the same level as the Pope. That is wrong.
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"In our time more than ever before, the greatest asset of the evil-disposed is the cowardice and weakness of good men, and all the vigour of Satan's reign is due to the easy-going weakness of Catholics."   -St. Pius X

"If the Church were not divine, this Council [the Second Vatican Council] would have buried Her."   -Cardinal Giuseppe Siri

St. Peter Arbues, pray for us.
Catholicmilkman
Guest
« Reply #116 on: March 07, 2008, 12:36:AM »

Quote from: Quo_Vadis_Petre
Quote from: Catholicmilkman
There's a reason why the Archbishop and four bishops were declared only to be in schism and not heresy.
Wrong. The SSPX bishops were excommunicated, but never in formal schism, despite what Pope John Paul II's document may have stated. As far back as Pope Paul VI's time, Rome knew about Archbishop's Lefebvre's opposition to Vatican II.

Sorry, but now you contradict yourself. First, you yourself stated the SSPX bishops to be not in formal schism, but now you do. Unless I interpret your statement wrongly, in which I apologize. None of the SSPX bishops have ever, EVER denied the authority of the Pope.
QVP, did I say that they were in schism? NO! I said they were declared to be in schism. Whether they really are or not I leave up to the judgment of our infinitely merciful God. I certainly agree with them that there is a crisis.

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Also, I think only you and McMaster are the only ones who state opposing the Second Vatican Council constitutes schism (at least materially), whereas not even Pope Paul VI, whatever else he might stated concerning the Council, declared that concerning Archbishop Lefebvre.
Please show me the document in which Pope Paul VI said that concerning Vatican II and the Archbishop.

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It seems to me that you're elevating a General Council to the same level as the Pope.
Not at all. But did Pope Paul VI not decree the council binding himself at it's closing? A general council is only a general council by decree and validation of the Pope. This is the only way General Councils can be infallible and define dogma since the universal Extraordinary Magisterium is only exercised by the Pope. The infallible decrees and dogmas of Trent, Vatican I, and all the others are infallible only by the fact that the Popes approved and validated them as such.
Hence denying Vatican II or saying it has real error would be much less of a problem with me if Pope Paul VI had never declared it binding.
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jovan66102
La foi Catholique d'abord! La mort à l'Islam!
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Gender: Male
Location: Temporarily, Council Bluffs, IA
Posts: 14,060



« Reply #117 on: March 07, 2008, 12:40:AM »

Quote from: jovan66102
Quote from: Catholicmilkman
The fact is though, Kathy, that all the non-Catholics observers cannot talk druing the actual meetings of the council. It's not the first time that non-Catholics were invited to a Ecumenical Council. They're all always invited and I believe some were even at Vatican I.
 
I would like to see some documentation for this statement. In all my reading of the history of the Ecumenical Councils, I have never heard of non-Catholics being invited to a Council prior to VII.
 
Still waiting for documentation on this unsupported statement.
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Jovan-Marya Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!

Deum timete, regem honorificate.
Quo_Vadis_Petre
Red Comet

Member

Posts: 3,691



« Reply #118 on: March 07, 2008, 12:40:AM »

Quote from: Catholicmilkman
Quote
Also, I think only you and McMaster are the only ones who state opposing the Second Vatican Council constitutes schism (at least materially), whereas not even Pope Paul VI, whatever else he might stated concerning the Council, declared that concerning Archbishop Lefebvre.
Please show me the document in which Pope Paul VI said that concerning Vatican II and the Archbishop.

Sorry, I meant to say there was no document by Pope Paul VI stating anything about Archbishop Lefebvre having a schismatic attitude because of his opposition to Vatican II.

Quote from: Catholicmilkman
Quote
It seems to me that you're elevating a General Council to the same level as the Pope.
Not at all. But did Pope Paul VI not decree the council binding himself at it's closing? A general council is only a general council by decree and validation of the Pope. This is the only way General Councils can be infallible and define dogma since the universal Extraordinary Magisterium is only exercised by the Pope. The infallible decrees and dogmas of Trent, Vatican I, and all the others are infallible only by the fact that the Popes approved and validated them as such.

From GrumpyTroll's post:

Pope Paul VI, in his General Audience of January the 12th, 1966, said:

There are those who ask what authority, what theological qualification, the Council intended to give to its teachings, knowing that it avoided issuing solemn dogmatic definitions backed by the Church’s infallible teaching authority. The answer is known by those who remember the conciliar declaration of March 6, 1964, repeated on November 16, 1964. In view of the pastoral nature of the Council, it avoided proclaiming in an extraordinary manner any dogmas carrying the mark of infallibility.
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"In our time more than ever before, the greatest asset of the evil-disposed is the cowardice and weakness of good men, and all the vigour of Satan's reign is due to the easy-going weakness of Catholics."   -St. Pius X

"If the Church were not divine, this Council [the Second Vatican Council] would have buried Her."   -Cardinal Giuseppe Siri

St. Peter Arbues, pray for us.
Cephas
Guest
« Reply #119 on: March 07, 2008, 12:44:AM »

I suppose the unknown number of top-level cardinals and bishops back then who opposed the changes in the Council were in schism too.

Lefebvre was "excommunicated" because he supposedly had no reason to consecrate the bishops, not because of his views on Vat II. If he were in schism for his views, then the ones in power were inept "in dealing with the pest for the last couple decades or so" and he died 3 years after the consecrations anyway.
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