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Author Topic: archbishop kidnapped in Iraq!  (Read 1995 times)
Credo
Member

Posts: 6,513



« Reply #30 on: March 01, 2008, 09:04:AM »

Quote

Clearly there are different denominations in Christianity

Actually there are not different denominations in Christanity. In fact, there are none, just the Church of Jesus Christ which is called Catholic.

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I promise not to put anything here which might help us question our mind-forged manacles, inspire us, or help us in any way at all.

N.B.: I will not be posting on this site again until the Christmas octave. Have a good Advent.
newtolatin
Member

Posts: 1,047


« Reply #31 on: March 01, 2008, 03:45:PM »

Quote from: HMiS

Quote from: Sonoman
After so many generations living side by side, it makes me wonder if it is possible to livein peace with these people.

May St. Michael protect him.


Yes it is. The problem is however that in the past Iraqi Jews were notable bankers of the local Kings and tribal leaders, so they protected the Jews. Likewise the Christian merchants had good contacts to India (where East Syrian influenced Christians also lived) for trade, and they were ancient inhabitants and fierce fighters (as the Assyrians still are, despite decimation by Turkish-secular troops in the 1915 Assyrian Genocide).

Now situation has changed, after colonialism and Israel, and Christians are now the only relict of the "convivial" past and seen as agents of the West.
Seems to me that one could also look at it that only as long as the non-Moslems were of use to them did they live peacefully with them?


Quote
Under Saddam all Iraqi Christians were still very safe and protected,
The article cited above also says this: Casmoussa: As a minority, in a sense we are suffering a bit more—but not as much as reported in the outside media. Churches and mosques have been bombed. Christian and Muslim homes and schools have been damaged.


Tariq Aziz - foreign minister of Saddam and leading member of Saddam's secular-Arab nationalist and Arab-socialist Ba'ath Party (secular, still in power in Syria now) was a Chaldean Rite Catholic himself and visited the pope to have him condemn Bush's war of aggression against the dictatorship and the Iraqi state.[/quote]I have been searching for all these years for a statement from the Pope which actually condemns the US alone. All I have found is statements saying that each nation needs to take action to avoid war. Do you have a link to a statement directed to US action alone?
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Other ages... are prone to faction, and it is our business to inflame them. Any small coterie, bound together by some interest which other men dislike or ignore, tends to develop inside itself a hothouse mutual admiration, and towards the outer world, a great deal of pride and hatred which is entertained without shame because the 'Cause' is its sponsor... Even when the little group exists originally for the Enemy's own purposes, this remains true.... The Church [H]erself is, of course, heavily defended... but subordinate factions within [H]er have often produced admirable results, from the parties of Paul and Apollos at Corinth down...." —The Screwtape Letters; number 7. C.S. Lewis
NathanSoc
Member

Posts: 684


« Reply #32 on: March 02, 2008, 01:48:AM »

Quote from: diotima
It´s YOU missing the point by a galaxy, duh, since the argument was about Bush/Blair "converting by the sword".

and I am well aware of the various "denominations" in islam (more than you are probably, since I´ve been spending years with moslems, debating islam, in real life and online...) - they ALL believe in the koran, and the koran btw believes in fighting the kuffar, ie.e. you and me and every non-moslem.
but that´s neither here nor there, since the argument was about your self-contradictory and stupid claims re Bush/Blair.

Crikey! It's like arguing with a three year old. I blame myself for giving up tolerance for Lent.

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diotima
Guest
« Reply #33 on: March 03, 2008, 05:04:AM »

Quote from: NathanSoc

Quote from: diotima
It´s YOU missing the point by a galaxy, duh, since the argument was about Bush/Blair "converting by the sword".

and I am well aware of the various "denominations" in islam (more than you are probably, since I´ve been spending years with moslems, debating islam, in real life and online...) - they ALL believe in the koran, and the koran btw believes in fighting the kuffar, ie.e. you and me and every non-moslem.
but that´s neither here nor there, since the argument was about your self-contradictory and stupid claims re Bush/Blair.

Crikey! It's like arguing with a three year old. I blame myself for giving up tolerance for Lent.

It is indeed! Only - that three year old is not I. as is amply proven by the fact, that so far you haven´t shown any signs of even UNDERSTANDING what the debate is about, much less, answering my points. duh.

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HMiS
Member

Gender: Male
Posts: 6,172



« Reply #34 on: March 03, 2008, 05:30:AM »

The Quran justifies murder, just like the Talmud - made up by anti-Christian Rabbis - calls Christians idolaters, calls non-Jews "beasts", and legitimizes Jews lying and tricking in trade if their fellow trader is a non-Jew, it also contains tens of anti-Christian calls and blasphemies against the Saviour.

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„Ja, Ja, wie Gott es will. Gott lohne es Euch. Gott schütze das liebe Vaterland. Für Ihn weiterarbeiten... oh, Du lieber Heiland!” ("Yes, Yes, as God wills it. May God repay it to you. May God protect the dear fatherland. Go on working for him... oh, you dear Savior!") - Clemens August Cardinal von Galen, his last words.


diotima
Guest
« Reply #35 on: March 03, 2008, 05:40:AM »

Quote from: HMiS

The Quran justifies murder, just like the Talmud - made up by anti-Christian Rabbis - calls Christians idolaters, calls non-Jews "beasts", and legitimizes Jews lying and tricking in trade if their fellow trader is a non-Jew, it also contains tens of anti-Christian calls and blasphemies against the Saviour.

the difference being, that the Talmud is just the opinion of different Rabbis, not binding on anyone, and is the result of christian persecution of the jews, let´s remember that little fact.
The KORAN, though, pretends to be the verbatim dictate of God - binding, unchanging.
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DaveC
Member

Posts: 1,736


« Reply #36 on: March 03, 2008, 12:11:PM »

"and is the result of christian persecution of the jews"

The Talmud is the result of Christians persecuting Jews?!??!

Wow.  Just...wow.

I don't even know how to respond charitably to that.

How is it that so many people can ignore the FACT that Christians have lived and do live with and under Islam without being killed or converted?  Then someone brings up the obvious point that Bush/Blair are so called Christians yet are sending kids to die in unjust wars....and you don't see the logical connection!?

You can call me a Mohammedian sympathizer, but you may be looking around for a Catholic sympathizer when you and Your Church are being framed for the wrong doings of a small group of people.  Because, as we all know, Catholicism has been anti-semitic from the start, and primed for violent fundamentalism just like Islam.  We have the same medieval barbaric roots don't we?  Wake up people...after Islam is brought into submission...The Church is next.
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In 2008, I'll vote for Ron Paul, or not at all!

رژیم صهیونیست بايد از صفحه روزگار محو شود

"Our own belief is that the renovation of the world will be brought about only by the Holy Eucharist."

    - Pope Leo XIII
HMiS
Member

Gender: Male
Posts: 6,172



« Reply #37 on: March 03, 2008, 03:33:PM »

Quote from: diotima
the difference being, that the Talmud is just the opinion of different Rabbis, not binding on anyone, and is the result of christian persecution of the jews, let´s remember that little fact.
The KORAN, though, pretends to be the verbatim dictate of God - binding, unchanging.

Then that's strange, that the Talmud was also prevalent and universal among the rabbinic Jews of India, the pagan Arab lands and in Islamic countries which all had never been Christian.

You are truly an anti-Christian Jewish-indoctrinated bigot without any knowledge of real history. Apart from the fact that Christians never really "persecuted" the Jews anywhere for religious reasons - just look at the Jewish Quarter in formerly Papal Rome and to Poland before 1942.

The Rabbinic Synod of Jamnia of 90 AD defined already most of the anti-Christian teachings, and at that time the Christians were the ones being persecuted, while the Jews were exempt from persecution and in fact in occassionally high positions. It is said that the mistress of the tyrannical Nero was a Jewess.

The Talmud may no longer be considered binding by Reform and liberal Conservative Jews, but in practice its anti-Christian extremist spirit still prevails even among atheistic Jews (Yahoda, Lev Kamenev etc.) until today, and historically it was most definitely binding. The post-Christ rabbinic explanation (rather: perversion) of Mosaic Law and other legal prescriptions in historical rabbinic Judaism, is thé core of the post-Temple Jewish religion. In definition against Jesus Christ and against the Old Covenant having been fullfilled. Because of this, post-Temple Judaism is more or less a new or totally different religion mostly when compared to Temple Judaism (real Jewish Faith) of the pious Israelites.
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„Ja, Ja, wie Gott es will. Gott lohne es Euch. Gott schütze das liebe Vaterland. Für Ihn weiterarbeiten... oh, Du lieber Heiland!” ("Yes, Yes, as God wills it. May God repay it to you. May God protect the dear fatherland. Go on working for him... oh, you dear Savior!") - Clemens August Cardinal von Galen, his last words.
NathanSoc
Member

Posts: 684


« Reply #38 on: March 04, 2008, 03:54:AM »

diotima
 
You are walking proof of why Islam can never triumph in place of Christianity. So I think your fears are groundless.

If anyone is interested in a Catholic look inside the Koran, I recommend the following from Zenit which I found to be both reasonable and enlightening

A ZENIT DAILY DISPATCH

A Look Inside the Koran and the Bible

PART 1

Father Sidney Griffith Compares and Contrasts the Texts

WASHINGTON, D.C., 26 JULY 2004 (ZENIT)

Muslims think of the Koran as presenting in Arabic the same message that God had previously sent down earlier in the Torah, at the hands of Moses, and in the Gospel, at the hands of Jesus.

So says Father Sidney Griffith, a professor of Semitic and Egyptian languages and literature at the Catholic University of America.

Father Griffith shared with ZENIT how Christians can better understand the Koran and how its teachings on Christ and Revelation differ from those found among Christians.

Part 2 of this interview will appear Tuesday.

Q: What exactly is the Koran? How was it written?

Father Griffith: The Koran—Qur’an, in the conventional transcription—in the sense in which we normally use the term, designates the holy scripture of the Muslim community.

It contains the revelations in Arabic, which God, Allah, sent down occasionally by the agency of the angel Gabriel to God’s messenger, Mohammed, from about the year A.D. 610 to his death in A.D. 632, the years during which the first Islamic community was assembling.

In the sense in which the term Koran is used in the text itself, it means the “reading” or “recitation” that God put on Mohammed’s heart, commanding him to read it, or to proclaim it, to its audience. Accordingly, in its origins the Koran was an oral “scripture” and to this day one normally hears it presented in a cadenced chant.

A relatively short time after Mohammed’s death, early Muslims collected the text of the revelations from the memories of the messenger’s companions and from some written aides de mémoire into the form and organization of the scripture, substantially as we have it in the standard editions today.

It comprises verses, described as marvelous “signs” from God, arranged in 114 suras, or chapters, each with its own name, taken from a key word in the text.

Conceptually, Muslims think of the Koran as presenting in Arabic the same message that God had previously sent down earlier in the Torah, at the hands of Moses, and in the Gospel, at the hands of Jesus.

Q: What would be the hardest for a Christian to understand about the Koran?

Father Griffith: First of all, a Christian, or any other reader unfamiliar with the biography of Mohammed and the early history of the Muslim community, is normally first struck by what he considers to be the disorder of the text.

It seems on a first reading, while being formally highly structured, to lack any topical system of narrative presentation.

In fact, the Muslim reader brings with him to the text in his Islamic consciousness the paradigms which enable him immediately to attune himself to the messages of the verses.

Secondly, the Christian reader knowledgeable about the Bible and the lore of early Christianity often finds it hard to understand the Koran’s way of dealing with biblical characters, stories and narratives familiar to him from the Bible and Christian tradition.

In fact, the Koran’s intention is not to repeat them. Rather, the Koran presumes in its audience a previous knowledge of these matters, enabling the Koran simply to allude to them or to evoke them in its audience’s mind for the purpose of making its own, often very different point.

Q: Briefly, could you explain the key differences between Islam and Christianity?

Father Griffith: The differences between Islam and Christianity are several; two of the most significant of them concern Christology and the theology of Revelation.

The Koran rejects the Christian confession of the divine sonship, that is, the divinity, of the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, as the Koran calls him. This denial in turn involves the rejection of the Christian doctrine of the Trinity, on the grounds that it compromises the Christian profession of monotheism.

Furthermore, according to the Koran, the genuine, uncorrupted Gospel, together with the Torah before it, and the Koran after it, are on a par as revelations which God has sent down to human beings at the hands of the messengers: Moses, Jesus and Mohammed. In Chapter 33, Verse 40, it says that Mohammed is the last, or the seal, of the prophets.

But the Torah and the Gospel, in the form in which the Jews and the Christians actually have them, are considered by the Muslims to be textually corrupt and subject to distorted interpretations.

For most Muslims, the Koran is considered to be the uncreated word of God, whereas for Christians the Bible, under divine inspiration, is the word of God in the words of human beings.

Most of the other differences between Islam and Christianity flow from these fundamental differences in doctrine.  There is also no clergy in Islam, comparable to Christian clergy; nor any authoritative, institutional magisterium, as in Catholicism.

Q: What part does the Koran play in Islam? Does it work along with Tradition, as in Catholicism?

Father Griffith: The Koran is the ultimate, revealed authority in Islam. There is no doctrine of a deposit of revelation both in Scripture and Tradition, as in Catholicism.

However, there is authoritative tradition, or “hadith,” in Islam, both in what is called holy tradition—“hadith qudsi”—and prophetic tradition—“hadith nabawi.”

The former is a report of a divine saying, repeated by Mohammed, which was nevertheless not included in the Koran, and therefore does not have the authority of the Koran. The latter is a report of a saying or an action of Mohammed, or a fact about him.

Traditions were collected and carefully scrutinized from the earliest days of Islam; a detailed system to guarantee the authenticity, or soundness, of genuine traditions was elaborated.

Since the ninth Christian century there have been official collections of sound traditions available to Muslim scholars for help in interpreting the Koran, especially in the effort to discern how to apply Koranic teaching to the vicissitudes of human life.

The Koran and the sound traditions are together the authoritative sources of Islamic law, of the biography of Mohammed, and of much else in the life of Muslims. ZE04072622

PART 2

Father Sidney Griffith on the Koran's Treatment of Other Religions

WASHINGTON, D.C., 27 JULY 2004 (ZENIT)

The Koran proclaims that Jews and Christians are "People of the Book," but the sacred text sometimes expresses ambivalence about the two faiths, according to a Semitic-languages scholar.

Father Sidney Griffith, a professor of Semitic and Egyptian languages and literature at the Catholic University of America, shared with ZENIT what the Koran says about Jesus, Mary and the followers of Abraham, and how it provides points of convergence for interreligious dialogue.

Part 1 of this interview appeared Monday.

Q: The Koran mentions Jesus and Mary. Could you explain the context?

Father Griffith: The Koran mentions both Jesus and Mary a number of times, always in terms of great personal esteem.

Most importantly, in Chapter 4, Verse 171, the Koran presents Jesus, the son of Mary, as the Messiah, as God's messenger; Jesus is seen as a word of God which he cast into Mary, and a spirit from him, who is nevertheless, in God's sight like Adam, a creature
according to Chapter 3, Verse 59.

At one point the Koran says God asked Jesus, "Did you tell people to take you and your mother as two gods?"
a question that Jesus answered in Chapter 5, Verse 116, saying, "It is not given me to say what is untrue." Clearly, in the Islamic view, both Jesus and Mary are human beings.

The Koran regularly follows the mention of Jesus, the Messiah, with the epithet "son of Mary," as if explicitly to deny the Christian belief that Jesus is the "Son of God."

At one point the Koran denies that Jesus' adversaries killed or crucified him, saying in Chapter 5, Verse 157, "it only seemed so to them," a statement that most Muslims take to mean that Jesus did not in fact die on the cross.

On the basis of a number of other passages in the Koran, most Muslims believe that there will be a role for Jesus on the final day of reckoning. Many Sufis, Muslim mystics, revere Jesus as a model holy man.

Q: For a non-Muslim, the Koran seems to contain a number of contradictions. How would a Muslim see it?

Father Griffith: The contradictions that non-Muslims claim to see in the Koran involve a number of perspectives, both internal and external to the text.

Internally, for example, non-Muslims often point to perceived inconsistencies or reversals of thought or practice between the Meccan and Medinan periods of Mohammed's prophetic career. Externally, they might cite differences between narratives concerned with biblical characters as they appear in the Koran and in the Torah or the Gospel.

Muslims would not consider these differences to be contradictions. Rather, they would think of the non-Muslim's perception of contradiction to be due to a failure in hermeneutics, that is, a failure to read and to understand verses in the Koran on their own terms, and within the interpretive frameworks of the Islamic communities.

Q: What elements in the Koran could open the way for interreligious dialogue? What elements could limit such dialogue?

Father Griffith: In many ways the Koran encourages dialogue with Jews and Christians
"People of the Book" as the Koran calls them some 54 times. For example, Chapter 10, Verse 94, says, "If you are in doubt about what We have sent down to you, ask those who were reading scripture before you."

Chapter 29, verse 46, proclaims, "Do not dispute with the People of the Book save in the fairest way; except for those of them who are evildoers. And say: 'We believe in what has been sent down to us and what has been sent down to you. Our God and your God are one and to Him we are submissive.'"

But there is some ambivalence. It is also the case that the Koran provides a powerful critique of the religious beliefs and practices of Christians and Jews. It characterizes their beliefs as going beyond the bounds of religious propriety
for example, in Chapter 4, Verse 171, and Chapter 5, Verse 77) and their customary behavior as morally objectionable.

On the one hand the Koran says in Chapter 5, Verse 82, that Christians are "the closest in affection to the believers."

On the other hand, in Chapter 5, Verse 51, it says, "Taken them not as friends." Another verse
Chapter 2, Verse 120, says, "Neither the Jews nor the Christians will be pleased with you until you follow their religion."

And within the Islamic polity, as envisioned by the Koran in Chapter 9, Verse 29, the People of the Book are required to pay a special poll tax and to adopt a low social profile in return for the protection, "dhimmah," of the Muslims, hence the adjective "dhimmi," or "one under protection," as applied to Christians or Jews.

Nevertheless, the Koran provides numerous points of convergence for interreligous dialogue. One of the most important of them is the significance of the faith of the biblical patriarch Abraham.

While the Koran insists in Chapter 3, Verse 67, that he was neither a Jew nor a Christian, but a submissive monotheist, it also speaks of the "religion of Abraham" in terms very close to those used by Jews and Christians. The Koran speaks of Abraham as God's friend; so do Isaiah 41:8 and James 2:23.

Q: What do you think attracts Western converts to Islam?

Father Griffith: There are many factors involved in the attraction of Islam to religious seekers in the West.

Positively, Islam is a compelling, reasonable, uncompromising monotheism with a biblical flavor. It provides a compelling moral code, which many moderns and postmoderns view as both realistic and honorable. The Koran's prophetology provides a congenial estimation of what it perceives to be the positive factors in earlier revelations, along with reasons why earlier peoples failed to heed them faithfully.

Islamic history and tradition in various times and places have produced societies with many admirable intellectual and scientific accomplishments. Many Westerners find Islamic mysticism attractive; others see in Islam an effective religious answer to what they view as the ills of the modern Western world.

On the negative side, many Christians who are attracted to Islam lack an adequate understanding of the history and teachings of the Church, and are easily deceived by the many hostile attacks on the Church's doctrines, practices and historical record.

They are unaware of the Church's answers to Islam's critique of Christianity. The shortcomings and moral failures they perceive in Christian communities sometimes dismay them. Often they are unaware of comparable problems in other communities of faith, including the Muslims.

The prevalent materialism and secularism of Western society has in many instances convinced potential converts to Islam that only in Islam can they find an effective antidote to it.

Sometimes potential converts to Islam are overcome in their own efforts faithfully to live the Christian life and, failing to find effective pastoral care from fellow Christians, or failing to follow it, they receive moral guidance and support from pious, observant Muslims. ZE04072721


 

This article has been selected from the ZENIT Daily Dispatch
© Innovative Media, Inc.

ZENIT International News Agency
Via della Stazione di Ottavia, 95
00165 Rome, Italy
www.zenit.org

To subscribe http://www.zenit.org/english/subscribe.html
or email: english-request@zenit.org with SUBSCRIBE in the "subject" field

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diotima
Guest
« Reply #39 on: March 04, 2008, 04:26:AM »

Quote from: HMiS

Quote from: diotima
the difference being, that the Talmud is just the opinion of different Rabbis, not binding on anyone, and is the result of christian persecution of the jews, let´s remember that little fact.
The KORAN, though, pretends to be the verbatim dictate of God - binding, unchanging.

Then that's strange, that the Talmud was also prevalent and universal among the rabbinic Jews of India, the pagan Arab lands and in Islamic countries which all had never been Christian.

You are truly an anti-Christian Jewish-indoctrinated bigot without any knowledge of real history. Apart from the fact that Christians never really "persecuted" the Jews anywhere for religious reasons - just look at the Jewish Quarter in formerly Papal Rome and to Poland before 1942.

The Rabbinic Synod of Jamnia of 90 AD defined already most of the anti-Christian teachings, and at that time the Christians were the ones being persecuted, while the Jews were exempt from persecution and in fact in occassionally high positions. It is said that the mistress of the tyrannical Nero was a Jewess.

The Talmud may no longer be considered binding by Reform and liberal Conservative Jews, but in practice its anti-Christian extremist spirit still prevails even among atheistic Jews (Yahoda, Lev Kamenev etc.) until today, and historically it was most definitely binding. The post-Christ rabbinic explanation (rather: perversion) of Mosaic Law and other legal prescriptions in historical rabbinic Judaism, is thé core of the post-Temple Jewish religion. In definition against Jesus Christ and against the Old Covenant having been fullfilled. Because of this, post-Temple Judaism is more or less a new or totally different religion mostly when compared to Temple Judaism (real Jewish Faith) of the pious Israelites.

the talmud NEVER was considered binding the way the bloody koran is. jews NEVER tried to conquer and enslave others, like moslems did from the get-go, IN ACCORDANCE AND OBEISANCE TO THEIR "word of God " (I mean Satan in their case).
I really don´t understand the mentality of some here, who HATE (yes, try to rationalise your blind hatred all you want) the chosen people of God, while siding with the ARCH enemy of christendom!
We can disagree with the Jews theologically, but it´s undeniable historical FACT, that in christian lands Jews WERE persecuted, vilified and excluded FOR BEING JEWS, and that OF COURSE after centuries of being chased from country to country, being denied the right to own land, work in many professions, live where they chose and many other things (not to mention the occasional outburst of violence, that killed many of them) they weren´t too charitably disposed to us or our religion, after all - this religion WAS taken as the justification for the treatment they got! The ATTITUDE that they had to face and live with is all too prevalent HERE on this site!
It´s not I, who has no knowledge of history - but then, it´s not I, who can´t face facts, either.
I often enough defend the Church and her history from claims of anti-semitism, but IT WAS THERE (as well as goodness, and help...)! And when I read stuff like I read here... it´s STILL here!

Btw: about that bloody piece of filth, called koran - the story about how it came to be given in the article above is only moslem myth. this faterh Griffith is an idiot.
Though the mohammedans tell that story, it´s patently wrong.
There is no proof the koran existed prior to the 9th century, in the form we know. The sanaa manuscripts are the oldes in existence, and they do show variations to the classical text as supposedly codified by uthman.
Mohammed - if he existed at all -just made up suras and ayats as needed for his purposes, that much can be seen from the ahadith themselves, and his child-bride Aisha (NINE years old, when bonked by the holy profit at age 53, widowed and forbidden to remarry at 18) remarked, when allah "revealed" a sura about the wives of the prophet when he was having a fight with them "your god is quick to come to your rescue". Indeed.
They were collected in no visible order, some were eaten by goats, some were lost. NOBODY knows exactly, what islam was in the 7th century - only one thing is certain: a hellish heresy made up by a raving, sex- and power obsessed narcissist, that on his death-bed gave the order to expell all non-moslems from the arabian peninsula.
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