UGC bishops consecrated without Rome!

[Catholicmilkman]

[There are other National Churches which are Catholic. The Armenian Catholic Church for instance, or the Arab- and Samaritan-dominated Melkite Greek Catholic Church.

But the Armenian Catholic Church is really only a portion of the Antiochian Catholic Church which Liturgy and Sacrament it uses. And the Melkite ought to be also as I believe, they originally did the Antiochian Rites also though I'm not absolutely sure on that.

The crux of the matter is the doctrine.

Absolutely.

And I also think about a possible future conversion (Union) of/with the Russian Orthodox Moscow Patriarchate. I think a national Ukrainian Church, in the native Kievan Rus', would offend the Moscovites, and this is not in the interest of political nor religious peace.

Not to mention that such a thing has never traditionally existed. They are properly the property of the Orthodox Catholic Patriarch of Russia since that is the Patriarch of the whole Byzantine Slavonic Church but some say they should all be under Constantinople since they say is the first Byzantine Patriarchate but if you go back further Constantinople is really the Antiochian Patriarchate because, if I remember correctly, that was it's original and proper Rite. I don't think we'll ever know or maybe the Church can create new Patriarchates. Just remember Constantinople tried to destroy and absorb much of the Greek Antiochians in that it's time. An sad consequence of Constantine going there and not staying in Rome where he belonged. I think now his throne has moved to Russia through the Holy Roman Empire and it's possible electable Emperor who would be a Russian Royal.

[HMiS]

But the Armenian Catholic Church is really only a portion of the Antiochian Catholic Church which Liturgy and Sacrament it uses. And the Melkite ought to be also as I believe, they originally did the Antiochian Rites also though I'm not absolutely sure on that.

The Armenian Catholic Church is a sui iuris Church, And not part of the Antiochian tradition, but of its own.

The Melkite Church is the Catholic successor to the Church which remained faithful to the Emperor in 451 in the Syriac-speaking areas. It became no longer West Syrian Rite but Byzantine Rite under the influence of the Byzantine Empire and the Constantinople patriarchate. It was West Syrian (Antiochian) Rite before the 8th century though. That is correct.

Not to mention that such a thing has never traditionally existed. They are properly the property of the Orthodox Catholic Patriarch of Russia since that is the Patriarch of the whole Byzantine Slavonic Church but some say they should all be under Constantinople since they say is the first Byzantine Patriarchate but if you go back further Constantinople is really the Antiochian Patriarchate because, if I remember correctly, that was it's original and proper Rite. I don't think we'll ever know or maybe the Church can create new Patriarchates. Just remember Constantinople tried to destroy and absorb much of the Greek Antiochians in that it's time. An sad consequence of Constantine going there and not staying in Rome where he belonged. I think now his throne has moved to Russia through the Holy Roman Empire and it's possible electable Emperor who would be a Russian Royal.

No, the Moscow Patriarchate was never recognized as an official Patriarchate by the Roman Church, but could become so in future, though. But Moscow was claimed a patriarchate only around 1584 if I am correct. Before that, it was a major Metropolitan ruling the Russian Church. Including most of the Ukraine back then still though. Remember the Metropolitan and Cardinal Isidore who in 1453 proclaimed the Union with the Holy See in Moscow and Kiev, but who was almost martyred to death by the Moscovite Prince and some of an angered anti-Latin mob. He died in Rome after many years in Russian Imperial prisons though.

[Josaphat]

Here's PROOF that Husar is a non-Catholic, and wishes the DESTRUCTION of the Catholic faith in Ukraine. What more need be said by Husar, to prove he is a heretic ans schismatic.

http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=39887

Ukrainian Catholic leader wants single Christian patriarchate

Kiev, Sep. 29, 2005 (CWNews.com) - The leader of the Eastern-rite Ukrainian Catholic Church has called for the creation of a single Eastern Church in that country, joining the Catholic and Orthodox under a single patriarch.

The religious tensions that trouble Ukraine could be solved, Cardinal Lubomyr Husar said, "if Ukraine had one patriarch for all." He told the Religious Information Service of Ukraine that on this basis, Ukrainian Christians could "return to the primary unity."

The Ukrainian prelate argued that "neither Moscow nor Rome will give us unity." Instead, he said, Ukrainian Catholics should join in a single Church, and then "Rome, Constantinople, or Moscow-- which is much younger compared to them-- will just accept this fact."

It is not essential, Cardinal Husar said, that the patriarch of this Ukrainian Church should be a Catholic. The single requirement for such a leader, he said, is that "this patriarch should be a man capable of uniting everyone."

However, the leader of the Ukrainian Catholic Church-- which is the largest Eastern Church in communion with Rome-- went on to say that a united Ukrainian Church must also be in communion with Rome. Therefore, he said, even if the patriarch is not now a Catholic, he would soon enter into full communion with the Holy See.

Cardinal Husar holds the title of Major Archbishop, but the Ukrainian Catholic Church has long sought recognition as a patriarchate. Cardinal Husar argues that recognition of a Ukrainian Catholic patriarchate would be a logical step, in the "natural development for a local Church in the Eastern tradition."

However, the Major Archbishop continued, neither the Vatican nor the Ukrainian Orthodox leadership properly understand the role of an autonomous Eastern Catholic Church. He argued that the unity within the Catholic Church "should be built not on uniformity, but on the preservation of everyone's own tradition. Cardinal Husar said that the Ukrainian Catholic Church is preserving the traditions of Eastern Christianity today, and Orthodox leaders should recognize the value of that continuity with the Christian traditions of Ukraine.

The Orthodox Church in Ukraine today is split into three different competing factions. After Ukraine won independence, with the fall of the Soviet empire, Metropolitan Filaret-- who had been recognized by the Russian Orthodox Church as spiritual leader of the Ukrainian Orthodox-- split with Moscow to set up the Ukrainian Orthodox Church- Kiev Patriarchate. The Ukrainian Orthodox Church- Moscow Patriarchate retains strong ties to the Russian Church. These two factions are joined by a third smaller group, the Ukrainian Autocephalous Church, in competing for Orthodox leadership.

The Ukrainian Orthodox Church- Moscow Patriarchate has clashed regularly with the Eastern Catholic Church, particularly over the decision by Cardinal Husar to move his headquarters from Lviv to Kiev. While Russian Orthodox prelates denounced the move as a infringement on the traditional Orthodox territory of Kiev, Patriarch Filaret, the rival Orthodox leader, welcomed the move.

Cardinal Husar said that the rivalries within the Ukrainian Orthodox community complicate his efforts to obtain a new union among Ukrainians Christians of the Eastern tradition. "We are in a rather chaotic state" in talks among religious leaders, he said. The Catholic prelate said that he hopes Orthodox leaders can resolve their disputes, since a united Orthodox representation would make "concrete talk much easier."

"The Church should be one, and we all recognize it," the Ukrainian Catholic leader said. The Eastern Christians of Ukraine, he concluded, need "one patriarch and one patriarchate."

[spasiisochrani]

I have read (in one of Donald Attwater's books, if I remember right) that, after the fall of the Russian Empire and the schism of the "Autocephalous Ukrainian Orthodox" church from Moscow, the clergy of that church voted to elect the Catholic Metropolitan Andrei Sheptytsky as their Patriarch of Kiev.  Nothing ever came of it, partly because of political conditions, but, if it had worked out, this would have united the "Autocephalous" church with the Greek Catholics.  That is what Cardinal Husar seems to want.

[Josaphat]

I have read (in one of Donald Attwater's books, if I remember right) that, after the fall of the Russian Empire and the schism of the "Autocephalous Ukrainian Orthodox" church from Moscow, the clergy of that church voted to elect the Catholic Metropolitan Andrei Sheptytsky as their Patriarch of Kiev.  Nothing ever came of it, partly because of political conditions, but, if it had worked out, this would have united the "Autocephalous" church with the Greek Catholics.  That is what Cardinal Husar seems to want.

Clearly, the clergy of the "Autocephalous Ukrainian Orthodox Church" can not even be considered  members of the Eastern Orthodox Church, judging from the fact that they desired a Catholic to head their church. It appears that yet again with Husar, we have another instance of nationalists who worship Ukraine every Sunday, rather than God.

In the U.S.A. a similar heretical denomination emerged named the "Polish National Catholic Church." This kookey sect rejects the Papacy, and worship Poland every Sunday.