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News: So, Pavlov's sitting in a bar enjoying a pint. The phone rings. He jumps up and says, "Dang! I forgot to feed the dog!"
 
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Author Topic: Police storm Mormon temple compound in Texas  (Read 28557 times)
StevusMagnus
Guest
« Reply #110 on: April 10, 2008, 08:36:PM »

Turns out they had an informant in there for FOUR YEARS and this phone call is the first time they were able to get probable cause to go in. They had this temple in their sight for years, waiting for an excuse.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24014376/#storyContinued

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NathanSoc
Member

Posts: 684


« Reply #111 on: April 11, 2008, 01:30:AM »

Quote from: ErinIsNotNice
Quote from: NathanSoc

Out of interest, does anyone know how old our most Blessed Virgin was when she gave birth to Our Lord? 18? 25?



You don't know your history too well, do you?

Well, neither do you.

According to the Catholic Encyclopedia

Jewish maidens were considered marriageable at the age of twelve years and six months, though the actual age of the bride varied with circumstances. The marriage was preceded by the betrothal, after which the bride legally belonged to the bridegroom, though she did not live with him till about a year later, when the marriage was celebrated. This fits with the language used in the Gospels, calling Mary “betrothed to Joseph,” although the marriage had not been consummated. From the age at which Hebrew maidens became marriageable, it is possible that Mary gave birth to her Son when she was about thirteen or fourteen years of age. No historical document tells us how old she actually was at the time of the Nativity.

Now, I grant you that Mary was probably the most exceptional woman ever to have lived, but  what was it you were saying about 14 year olds being incapable of being good mothers, Erin???

You walked straight into that one.

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NathanSoc
Member

Posts: 684


« Reply #112 on: April 11, 2008, 01:49:AM »

Quote from: Satori

All of these musings on the purpose of marriage and whether or not it's okay for 14-year-old girls to marry older men make some good points but are irrelevant to the subject at hand.

I personally would not consider a teenager a "child," but neither do I consider it right to force a teenager -- or anyone else -- into marriage. I cannot believe that a traditional Catholic man is dismissing concerns about forced marriage with pointy little questions about arranged marriage that are obviously designed to trap those questioned. What is wrong with you, NathanSoc? Why such a bad mood? Since when is a woman a feminist because she expresses a desire for some basic bodily integrity? That has nothing to do with sexual duties in marriage and the proper way to give and receive such duties. Are you even married?

If you look at the biographies of many of the earliest female saints, their Christianity was discovered when they refused to enter arranged marriages. I would expect traditional Catholics to take this very seriously; nattering on stubbornly about how there's nothing wrong with arranged marriages (which is basically true) is not only off the subject, it sounds more like Protestant thinking than anything Catholic, and some of it is tinged with misogyny. There, I've said it. Some of you men need to stop flailing the term "feminist" around everytime a woman disagrees with you, especially when so many of your arguments reek of dislike for women.

Grow up, Satori.

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Aloysius
Member

Posts: 277


« Reply #113 on: April 11, 2008, 04:54:AM »

I want to clarify that when I said people change, I was referring to the finished product as a result of the way they were enculturated and raised.  people are different today because they have been raised to be different... it's certainly not an ontological difference by any means, though.

reconstruction attempts to restore a previous cultural system that would allow for the 14 yr. old girl to old man scenario are doomed to failure; even if you raise the 14 year old girl into that type of culture and raise her correctly, the middle aged man was certainly still not raised correctly to be able to honor the way such a thing ought to have been done in traditional society.  this is just one area where is is not possible to healthily turn back the clock fully... this doesn't mean we ought to condemn what used to be done, but we ought to say it cannot and should not be done nowadays.  that might sound similar to a lot of modernist arguments; but the difference is on this issue those arguments actually apply whereas on other issues they do not apply, because the way people develop sexually is very important to what mode of marriage they are able to healthily live out.

there are a lot of people in modern society who have been so severely messed up that they may not even be fit for any type of marriage at all.  the way we were raised, we are only fit for a limited scope of age difference until we're around 18; once that age is reached, however, age difference even to some extreme levels is perfectly possible (and of course, that age doesn't stand as the end-all-be-all for every person, it is different based upon the individual)... but the way we are raised leaves us predisposed to need to marry within our own age group if we are raised young... and I'm sorry but you pretty much cannot find any way in modern society to raise your children to effectively be of the same mental capacity for marriage as they were in medieval or ancient times.  the whole society would have to change radically for that.

arranged marriages are fine; forced marriages are not.  there must be the free consent of the will for a marriage to be effective, either by sacrament or natural law.
  in an arranged marriage, there must be an opt-out possibility; though some degree of pressure is allowed (there's still parental pressure exerted even when marriage is decided according to modern courtship/dating rituals), ie the rejection of an arranged marriage might be taken as an insult to your parents, your family, or the family of the one you were arranged to marry and all the consequences of that insult would have to be dealt with.
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When I wish to solve those problems, which perplex the wisest men,
And deduce abstruse conclusions, that transcend all human ken;
When I wish to know the secrets which the pyramids infold,
Or to understand the statecraft of Rameses Great of Old,
I just sit here quiet and easy, and all things seem clear as day,
When I see the smoke a-curling from my pipe of Irish clay.
HMiS
Member

Gender: Male
Posts: 6,172



« Reply #114 on: April 11, 2008, 04:59:AM »

Quote from: Aloysius
I want to clarify that when I said people change, I was referring to the finished product as a result of the way they were enculturated and raised. people are different today because they have been raised to be different... it's certainly not an ontological difference by any means, though.

reconstruction attempts to restore a previous cultural system that would allow for the 14 yr. old girl to old man scenario are doomed to failure; even if you raise the 14 year old girl into that type of culture and raise her correctly, the middle aged man was certainly still not raised correctly to be able to honor the way such a thing ought to have been done in traditional society. this is just one area where is is not possible to healthily turn back the clock fully... this doesn't mean we ought to condemn what used to be done, but we ought to say it cannot and should not be done nowadays. that might sound similar to a lot of modernist arguments; but the difference is on this issue those arguments actually apply whereas on other issues they do not apply, because the way people develop sexually is very important to what mode of marriage they are able to healthily live out.

there are a lot of people in modern society who have been so severely messed up that they may not even be fit for any type of marriage at all. the way we were raised, we are only fit for a limited scope of age difference until we're around 18; once that age is reached, however, age difference even to some extreme levels is perfectly possible (and of course, that age doesn't stand as the end-all-be-all for every person, it is different based upon the individual)... but the way we are raised leaves us predisposed to need to marry within our own age group if we are raised young... and I'm sorry but you pretty much cannot find any way in modern society to raise your children to effectively be of the same mental capacity for marriage as they were in medieval or ancient times. the whole society would have to change radically for that.

arranged marriages are fine; forced marriages are not.  there must be the free consent of the will for a marriage to be effective, either by sacrament or natural law.
  in an arranged marriage, there must be an opt-out possibility; though some degree of pressure is allowed (there's still parental pressure exerted even when marriage is decided according to modern courtship/dating rituals), ie the rejection of an arranged marriage might be taken as an insult to your parents, your family, or the family of the one you were arranged to marry and all the consequences of that insult would have to be dealt with.

Beautifully spoken!
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„Ja, Ja, wie Gott es will. Gott lohne es Euch. Gott schütze das liebe Vaterland. Für Ihn weiterarbeiten... oh, Du lieber Heiland!” ("Yes, Yes, as God wills it. May God repay it to you. May God protect the dear fatherland. Go on working for him... oh, you dear Savior!") - Clemens August Cardinal von Galen, his last words.


Satori
Member..

Posts: 7,697



« Reply #115 on: April 11, 2008, 06:20:AM »

Quote from: NathanSoc
Grow up, Satori.

An ad hominem thrust that could be perfectly applied to you. You could learn to have a little more respect for other people instead of dismissing them like some snotty teenager.

Aloysius is absolutely right.
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"Skeptics will always prevail. God gives us just enough to seek Him, and never enough to fully find Him. To do more would inhibit our freedom, and our freedom is very dear to God." --Ron Hansen, "Mariette in Ecstasy"
Catholicdad
Guest
« Reply #116 on: April 11, 2008, 08:48:AM »

Quote from: Satori

No, silly, by bodily integrity I meant not being raped and mauled. Piercings and tattoos are another issue entirely.

So, young men who go to war, and male children, who are abused (with increasing and greater regularity)--does their bodily intergrity count for anything--or . . . ?

Sorry, it just seems these issues are consistently focused on women and female children.  Surely, there are boys in these "compounds."  What of them?

It just seems so, you know, sexist.

 - Dad
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Catholicdad
Guest
« Reply #117 on: April 11, 2008, 08:50:AM »

Quote from: Satori

Quote from: NathanSoc
Grow up, Satori.

An ad hominem thrust that could be perfectly applied to you. You could learn to have a little more respect for other people instead of dismissing them like some snotty teenager.

Aloysius is absolutely right.

Interesting.

 - Dad
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Satori
Member..

Posts: 7,697



« Reply #118 on: April 11, 2008, 08:56:AM »

Quote from: Catholicdad
Quote from: Satori

No, silly, by bodily integrity I meant not being raped and mauled. Piercings and tattoos are another issue entirely.

So, young men who go to war, and male children, who are abused (with increasing and greater regularity)--does their bodily intergrity count for anything--or . . . ?

Sorry, it just seems these issues are consistently focused on women and female children.  Surely, there are boys in these "compounds."  What of them?

It just seems so, you know, sexist.

 - Dad


Of course their bodily integrity counts for something. But the point being discussed was whether or not a woman is a feminist for not wanting to be forced  -- oh, never mind.

I'm sorry if you find the term "bodily integrity" silly -- it was all I could think of.

There is much to be concerned about in the situation of the boys in the compound. As I believe a previous poster already mentioned, it's been reported that the boys and young men get run off so they won't be competition for the women. I've also read of them having their wives taken away and given to other men with more status, which is humiliating, degrading, and traumatic for both parties, obviously.
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"Skeptics will always prevail. God gives us just enough to seek Him, and never enough to fully find Him. To do more would inhibit our freedom, and our freedom is very dear to God." --Ron Hansen, "Mariette in Ecstasy"
alaric
Lone Wolf
Member

Gender: Male
Posts: 6,975



« Reply #119 on: April 11, 2008, 02:41:PM »

Quote from: DrBombay
"When they came for the Mormons, I didn't say anything because I'm not a nut."

When they start rounding up the non-nuts, let me know.
By the time time they got to the "non-nutz" there was no one else to say anything......

Ok Doc,now gimme your paw,roll over,speak.

"Woof!!"

Good boy! (hands tasty milk bone to canine).

BTW there's plenty of "nutz" on this forum to go around.
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To defend oneself, one must also be ready to die. There is little such readiness in a society raised in the cult of material well-being. Nothing is left, then, but concessions, attempts to gain time, and betrayal.
--- Alexander Solzhenitsyn


"Wrong is wrong even if everybody is doing it, and right is right even if nobody is doing it."
-St. Augustine Doctor of the Church

In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
George Orwell

There is no limit to investigating the truth; until you discover it.
- Cicero
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