Police storm Mormon temple compound in Texas

[NathanSoc]

 

Frm Wikipedia, state by state. It seems that NH is the only one that goes as low as 13, but 'only in cases of "special cause" with parental consent and court permission.'

Thank you for that, Jovan

[Heliodora]

I do not understand why the raid of a Mormon temple should cause this much stir among Catholics. 

I can understand the fear of the government machine, and certainly with the way things are going in the world, it is not unlikely that being Catholic will one day become illegal as it has before in history, and even in this very country.  Worse things are going on right now in other countries, and it isn't so very difficult to imagine that we will become like them. 

But here we have a case where you have a polygamist religion, an anti-Catholic religion, a false religion, and a compound where women are being traded and kept like cattle, and you wish to defend this practice? Women and children are being forced into marriages with dirty old men that they don't want.  How can you as a Catholic defend this practice?

Surely you can distinguish between the justified use of authority in seeking justice, and the potential future abuse of that authority?  

The Catholic Church has never condoned the marriage of unwilling parties.  The Church has never condoned the way in which these Mormons treat their women and children.   In fact, She has always condemned it.  I should hope that I am stating the obvious- I feel ridiculous stating it to a Catholic at a Catholic forum.

I can perhaps appreciate your efforts, in trying to make the forced marriage of young brides to older men appear to be a commonplace thing historically, if in reality it is merely an effort to save face and soften your initial position.  Maybe.  I surely hope that you do not truly believe that what those Mormons were doing wasn't criminal. 

While child brides are certainly not a new thing, we can agree that neither is sin.  It is the fallen nature of man that arranges these things- not God.

[NathanSoc]

But here we have a case where you have a polygamist religion, an anti-Catholic religion, a false religion, and a compound where women are being traded and kept like cattle, and you wish to defend this practice? Women and children are being forced into marriages with dirty old men that they don't want.  How can you as a Catholic defend this practice?

Dirty old men? Where on earth do you get your ideas from? And what makes you think that dirty old men desire 14 year old wives? Personally, I think dirty old men would much prefer a good strip club... the boobs are much larger for a start.

And no, I am not defending polygamy. It is a most foolish and unwise state of matrimony if you ask me. You know how nasty women can get towards each other. You only have to go over to the breastfeeding thread to see that. Imagine having to put up with that every Sunday before going to mass!

[NathanSoc]

Surely you can distinguish between the justified use of authority in seeking justice, and the potential future abuse of that authority?  

Imagine how traumatised the children must be being carted off from their mothers then put into a strange room and asked all sorts of lurid questions by strangers.

I saw a news report on this and there was a mormon woman dressed in her 19th century garb clearly distressed and screaming into a news camera about what right the government had to try to destroy their community.

If men are commiting rape, then obviously it is they who should be arrested and taken into custody. But I didn't see too many women rushing into the arms of the Feds, saying "thank you for rescuing us from these dirty old men".

Strange sense of justice you have Heliodora.

[Catholicdad]

it is not the morality which has changed, but the people.

Nah, I disagree. Times change, but not people.

For thousands of years there have been cultures that have wed 14 year old brides to elderly tribal chiefs. Clearly, it is not some form of pedophilia or child abuse. But such marriages are not practised any more - except by reconstructed religious minorities.

King David had many wives... is that some sort of evidence of pedophilia?

So if you had a 14 year old daughter, would you allow her to marry a middle aged man?

Well, that really depends on how much money he has, Ms Modern America.

So you would sell your daughter? This is a joke right? 

And by the way, just because people did certain things a long time ago, it doesn't make those things morally acceptable.  Many cultures also practiced infanticide.

With regard to the second paragraph--I seem to find myself on a website that CONSTANTLY talks about how "tradition" is a good thing, yet in this particular example (young bride) it seems what is "traditional" is "bad" for you and "marriage" is reduced to "sex."  How odd?

With regard to the first paragraph--I looked and looked, and find nothing the poster wrote that would indicate he wants to accept money.  My "traditional" presumption would be that, like any loving father (or man), he wants to ensure his daughter is well provided for.

It seems, in your revealing mindset, that most men have evil or nefarious intentions, most of the time.  I'm very sad for you.
 - Dad

[Heliodora]

 
And no, I am not defending polygamy.

By defending these people, and by suggesting that the government should not have raided this place, yes, in effect you are.

It is a most foolish and unwise state of matrimony if you ask me.  

It is morally wrong, against natural law, and mortally sinful.  It is also illegal.

 
Imagine how traumatised the children must be being carted off from their mothers then put into a strange room and asked all sorts of lurid questions by strangers.

Yes, I'm sure it is quite traumatizing for all of them.  It is even worse that they were being bred to become part of a polygamist cult.  It is unfortunate that this religion exists in the first place, leading so many people astray.

 
I saw a news report on this and there was a mormon woman dressed in her 19th century garb clearly distressed and screaming into a news camera about what right the government had to try to destroy their community.

The news also reported that many women gladly walked away.  Whether they were glad to go or no remains irrelevant.  The government has the right to make laws and to enforce them.  We could argue all day about whether the way in which they enforce them is correct or not, but the fact remains that what these Mormons were doing is illegal and immoral.  The particular laws in question happen to also be objectively moral.

[spasiisochrani]

 

 

 

What a great picture!  Is that a Texas Ranger?

[newtolatin]

It was so odd reading this thread. My first reaction was that a society which promotes child/youth sexual activity all the way to encouraging homosexual child sexual activity, abortions for those who don't use their condoms correctly, and fights against parental notification, and allows the same schools which are not allowed to give out acetominiphen to arrange abortions, is calling what those jack-Mormons do child abuse?!?!?!?

Well, our society still has some standards, I guess, it's only ok for children/youths to have sex with other children/youths... :(

Anyway, for those of you who are more conservative, one of the ways that these "families" manage financially is that the man's "wives" all get welfare and he lives like a king. And the Mormons have "traditionally" been very controlling with their women; just because the marrriage is arranged doesn't mean it's not also forced.

[Archbishop_10K]

Again, I have to ask: why would a mentally healthy, middle-aged man want to bonk a 14-year old girl, when he can have much more mature and physically developed women his own age? Why would a 14-year old girl want to bonk a middle-aged man, when she can have much younger and more energetic men her own age? This makes no friggin' sense whatsoever.

[Don't Miss]

More developments in the story. What a bunch of pervs.


http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/09/texas.ranch/index.html

ELDORADO, Texas (CNN) -- The 16-year-old girl whose phone calls led to a raid on a polygamist compound in Texas identified Dale Evans Barlow as the man who she said beat, choked and sexually assaulted her after their "spiritual marriage," according to a court document unsealed Wednesday.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                          

                                                                                               

An affidavit says "Sarah," 16, said Dale Evans Barlow, shown in 2005, beat her and forced her to have sex.

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The affidavit, signed by Texas Ranger Leslie Brooks Long, also says a former member of the polygamist church told authorities details of the sect's activities -- including a bed inside the group's temple that adult men used to have sex with underage girls immediately after wedding ceremonies.

After authorities raided the ranch late Thursday, the ranger "observed the bed within the temple that had disturbed bed linens and a strand of hair that appears to be from a female head."

The document said the 16-year-old, whom state officials call Sarah, identified her husband as a 49-year-old named Dale Barlow. Watch more about her story »

Dale Evans Barlow, who turned 50 in November, was arrested in Arizona in 2005 on charges of conspiracy to have sex with a minor. He was placed on three years probation.

State officials said Wednesday they believe they have taken the 16-year-old girl into protective custody, but that she may be afraid to identify herself.

Marleigh Meisner, a spokeswoman for the state's Child Protective Services, said agency officials believe all of the children who lived at the ranch have been removed and are "hopeful" Sarah is among them.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          

Don't Miss

• FLDS lawyers challenge raid
• Read the Tuesday affidavit (PDF)
• Hundreds removed from ranch
• Raid exposes sect's secrets

                                                                      

"We believe, but can't confirm, that she is with us and that she's simply too frightened to come forward," Meisner said. "This is a situation where the family is an entire community and the dynamics involved in that make it very difficult for her to trust us." Watch Meisner give an update on Sarah, other children »

According to the document released Wednesday, the girl said she has an 8-month-old child and is pregnant again. She said Barlow has beaten her -- once hard enough to break her ribs -- choked her and forced her to have sex with him.

She said another of Barlow's "spiritual wives" would hold her infant child while he beat her.

Long also wrote about seeing a document at the ranch that suggested marriages between one man and more than 20 wives -- all of whom lived in the same house.

Two men were arrested for obstructing police, and 416 children were taken into temporary legal custody at the YFZ (Yearning For Zion) Ranch after the 16-year-old girl made a series of phone calls last month to a local family violence hot line.

Authorities, including the Texas Rangers and state child welfare workers, raided the ranch late Thursday night.

Sandra Guerra-Cantu, a doctor with the Texas Department of State Health Services, said most of the children are in good health -- though a dozen have chicken pox.

      The ranch is run by Warren Steed Jeffs' Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (FLDS). Jeffs is in prison after being convicted last year in Utah on two counts of being an accomplice to rape, charges related to a marriage he performed in 2001. Watch a woman taught by Jeffs tell her story »

A separate state affidavit released Tuesday described what it said was a widespread practice at the ranch of girls as young as 13 being married to adult men once they were believed to be of childbearing age. Read the affidavit released Tuesday

The document unsealed Wednesday said a former member of the church who lived at the ranch had become an informant for the local sheriff -- speaking with him as many as 20 times and as recently as April 5.

It said details from the informant, which included the sect's practice of marrying teen girls to older men, were consistently "proven to be reliable, true and correct."

The children are being housed at the complex of Fort Concho and a second shelter opened Tuesday in nearby San Angelo, Texas. Established in 1867, Fort Concho is a 23-building national historic site where Army troops were stationed until 1889.

In addition to the children, 139 adult women have voluntarily gone to the shelters. Meisner said the women are not in state custody and are free to leave at any time, although as of Wednesday afternoon none had. E-mail to a friend