SSPX Confirms Existence of Vatican Offer

[neel]

Aviano, I've been thinking about this, and I don't think you're being fair to the SSPX.  They don't think the sacraments are inherently invalid.  But can you blame them for having doubts about a lot of the sacraments as practiced in the Novus Ordo?  I mean, there's a lot of crazy stuff that goes on in a lot of Novus Ordo parishes throughout the world.  When I considered the Novus Ordo sacraments as valid (which I do not, being a sede, but that's beside the point), I would have wagered that there were more invalid sacraments then valid ones.

Archbishop Lefebvre recognized this and acted accordingly.  He created priests in which no one could doubt their sacramental validity and who would confer sacraments in which no one would have doubts about their validity.  

[littleway]

I don't know why anyone thinks that Pope Benedict has offered anything new to the Society.

I don't know why anyone thinks that the Society should have any "response" either.

The offer and the response have been done with years ago. The offer was, "Will you have faith in the Church?", and the response was, "With respect, Holy Father, only if we are the guarantors and keepers of the Church!"

I just wish that Bishop Fellay would take a Saint-ly stance, which I personally think he might, and simply reconcile with Rome! It ain't that hard! The "state of emergency", whether Archbishop LeFebvre genuinely believed in it or not, is over! It never existed to begin with.

[Catholicmilkman]

I don't know why anyone thinks that Pope Benedict has offered anything new to the Society.

I don't know why anyone thinks that the Society should have any "response" either.

The offer and the response have been done with years ago. The offer was, "Will you have faith in the Church?", and the response was, "With respect, Holy Father, only if we are the guarantors and keepers of the Church!"

I just wish that Bishop Fellay would take a Saint-ly stance, which I personally think he might, and simply reconcile with Rome! It ain't that hard! The "state of emergency", whether Archbishop LeFebvre genuinely believed in it or not, is over! It never existed to begin with.

You have eyes and do not see as our Lord said. St. Paul prophesied about the great apostacy and yet you refuse to believe it even when it is right before your eyes. You are a coward, littleway. You just don't want to get your hands dirty or have people yell at you because you believe the truth, namely, that the Novus Ordo is not Catholic. Grow some balls, boy. And pray to the Holy Ghost for the Gift of Fortitude. St. Anthony of Padua, ora pro nobis

Jonathan

[Gloria1]

Yeah, right, littleway.  No state of emergency

[adlucem]

I don't know why anyone thinks that Pope Benedict has offered anything new to the Society.

I don't know why anyone thinks that the Society should have any "response" either.

The offer and the response have been done with years ago. The offer was, "Will you have faith in the Church?", and the response was, "With respect, Holy Father, only if we are the guarantors and keepers of the Church!"

I just wish that Bishop Fellay would take a Saint-ly stance, which I personally think he might, and simply reconcile with Rome! It ain't that hard! The "state of emergency", whether Archbishop LeFebvre genuinely believed in it or not, is over! It never existed to begin with.

You have eyes and do not see as our Lord said. St. Paul prophesied about the great apostacy and yet you refuse to believe it even when it is right before your eyes. You are a coward, littleway. You just don't want to get your hands dirty or have people yell at you because you believe the truth, namely, that the Novus Ordo is not Catholic. Grow some balls, boy. And pray to the Holy Ghost for the Gift of Fortitude. St. Anthony of Padua, ora pro nobis

Jonathan

Does the SSPX recognize the NO as a valid Mass?

[neel]

I don't know why anyone thinks that Pope Benedict has offered anything new to the Society.

I don't know why anyone thinks that the Society should have any "response" either.

The offer and the response have been done with years ago. The offer was, "Will you have faith in the Church?", and the response was, "With respect, Holy Father, only if we are the guarantors and keepers of the Church!"

I just wish that Bishop Fellay would take a Saint-ly stance, which I personally think he might, and simply reconcile with Rome! It ain't that hard! The "state of emergency", whether Archbishop LeFebvre genuinely believed in it or not, is over! It never existed to begin with.

You have eyes and do not see as our Lord said. St. Paul prophesied about the great apostacy and yet you refuse to believe it even when it is right before your eyes. You are a coward, littleway. You just don't want to get your hands dirty or have people yell at you because you believe the truth, namely, that the Novus Ordo is not Catholic. Grow some balls, boy. And pray to the Holy Ghost for the Gift of Fortitude. St. Anthony of Padua, ora pro nobis

Jonathan

Does the SSPX recognize the NO as a valid Mass?

Yes, they teach that the Novus Ordo when done properly is valid.  But they argue that most Novus Ordo's are invalid because of the crazy stuff that goes on in most parishes.


And to the bolded sentence, all i can say is:

[Catholicmilkman]

Does the SSPX recognize the NO as a valid Mass?

Normally and usually, yes. It's the same as for the Tridentine Mass, you must have matter, form and intention/minister. The missal itself (even in Latin) has problems though and it has not borne good fruit (from what I can see anyway) and it was formulated by those highly suspected of heresy and freemasonry. The present crisis is enough for me to want it condemned and suppressed. It just like if a Catholic priest were to use Cramner's heretical missal or a Lutheran missal which still uses "This is My Body"; "This is...My Blood" with the intention.

[Aviano]

Aviano, I've been thinking about this, and I don't think you're being fair to the SSPX. They don't think the sacraments are inherently invalid. But can you blame them for having doubts about a lot of the sacraments as practiced in the Novus Ordo? I mean, there's a lot of crazy stuff that goes on in a lot of Novus Ordo parishes throughout the world. When I considered the Novus Ordo sacraments as valid (which I do not, being a sede, but that's beside the point), I would have wagered that there were more invalid sacraments then valid ones.

Neel, first off, I thought you weren't a sede anymore?

But concerning the NO, when the SSPX continuously refers to the NO as "sacreligious" and "heretical", advises their parishioners to avoid it completely even if it means missing Sunday mass and regular confession, and even to the point of some priests saying that it is a mortal sin to attend a NO mass, you will have a hard time convincing me that the SSPX considers the NO mass as valid.

Archbishop Lefebvre recognized this and acted accordingly. He created priests in which no one could doubt their sacramental validity and who would confer sacraments in which no one would have doubts about their validity.

The problem is that many do. The SSPX operates outside of legitimate church authority. Even if some can make the leap that it's okay to attend SSPX masses despite the fact that they are illicit (and many don't), the truth is that many more doubt their facilities for confession, marriage, annulment tribunals, etc.

I haven't seen anyone question whether FSSP or Institute of Christ the King confessions or marriages are valid. The reason is because they operate within the church.

[Catholicmilkman]

I haven't seen anyone question whether FSSP or Institute of Christ the King confessions or marriages are valid. The reason is because they operate within the church.

Why would anyone want to do that, especially SSPX supporters? We still believe the Church is the Church. I do at least. I'm sure many SV's, even some of those on this forum, doubt all their sacraments of their priests who have been ordained in either in the new rite or in the old rite by a bishop who was consecrated in the new rite.
On the other hand as a Catholic who supports the SSPX I will not and cannot believe in some of the sacraments of some priests, such as the crazy ones who use coffee and cookies for the Mass which would make it no Mass at all because those are invalid matter.

But concerning the NO, when the SSPX continuously refers to the NO as "sacrilegious" and "heretical", advises their parishioners to avoid it completely even if it means missing Sunday mass and regular confession, and even to the point of some priests saying that it is a mortal sin to attend a NO mass, you will have a hard time convincing me that the SSPX considers the NO mass as valid.

All Catholics believe the Eastern schismatic Masses are valid and really our Lord Jesus Christ, does that mean we have to believe it's not a sin (of schism) to receive Holy Communion from such illicit Masses which are outside the Church or that such Masses are not schismatic? The SSPX believes one thing that the N.O. is not Catholic and hence heretical and sacrilegious to participate in, and that is a completely different belief from believing that the Words of Consecration in N.O. missal is inherently invalid and cannot transubstantiate bread and wine into the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord and God Jesus Christ.

[QuisUtDeus]

But concerning the NO, when the SSPX continuously refers to the NO as "sacreligious" and "heretical", advises their parishioners to avoid it completely even if it means missing Sunday mass and regular confession, and even to the point of some priests saying that it is a mortal sin to attend a NO mass, you will have a hard time convincing me that the SSPX considers the NO mass as valid.

Since it is valid, all the more reason to avoid it when the shenanigans are going on because then it is blasphemous. The SSPX made a statement saying they consider it valid.  They've also made clear statements that they believe the new rites of ordination are valid.

So either you are ignoring that statement or calling them liars.

I haven't seen anyone question whether FSSP or Institute of Christ the King confessions or marriages are valid. The reason is because they operate within the church.

The reason is Pete Vere doesn't have an ax to grind with them.  He was one of the originators of the theory that they are all invalid.  I think it's a fair question to ask, but the fact that people ask it doesn't necessarily signify what you are implying.