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Author Topic: Bishop Williamson on "the conditions"  (Read 7203 times)
neel
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« Reply #50 on: June 27, 2008, 12:12:AM »

Quote from: StevusMagnus
I think the SSPX risks slowly fading into irrelevancy


I thought it was the revolutionaries who were worried about being "relevant"... Laughing Fool
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Tradglad
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Posts: 896


« Reply #51 on: June 27, 2008, 02:31:AM »

   Excommicate the whole lot, formally and finally. The SSPX is insignificant. It is time to end the charade. The Pope is done with it.  The SSPX has have nothing but Aces and Eights and Rome has dealt the final hand !

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ggreg
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« Reply #52 on: June 27, 2008, 02:45:AM »

Quote from: DarkKnight

Can you still be a member of the True Faith if Peter says "You're cut off!"?


Athanasius was.
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Vincentius
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Location: Now in actual "exile" in the Pacific islands
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« Reply #53 on: June 27, 2008, 08:40:AM »

Quote
The only condition I see as potentially problematic for them is #3:

Quote:

3. A commitment to avoid the pretense of a Magisterium superior to the Holy Father and to not put forward the Fraternity [SSPX] in opposition to the Church.

       
I think the Vatican made these conditions ambiguous to help an agreement take place.  But the SSPX hates ambiguity and will want to define things. If so why not define the statement in your response and then agree to it. Put the ball in Rome's court.

I don't see any problem with that.    The fact that the SSPX feels it has a free rein and keeps establishing church communities wherever they please, which in essence they are acting like they were the Pope.     If that isn't a semblance of a superior Magisterium or running a parallel Church, I don't know what is.  

Quote
In response to this I would start by stating we accept the authentic magisterium of the Pope in all things that accord with Tradition. Since the Pope thinks everything he is saying is in accord with Tradition it shouldn't be a problem.

That is exactly what I have been saying all along in these  threads.    We keep harping about the ills and wrongs wrought by the Pope, as if these would affect the indefectibility and infallability of the Church.     Whatever the Pope does he is answerable to God and will be judged accordingly. and it would be a harsh judgment.    The problem we all have, without exception, is that we have appointed ourselves judges of the Pope.    The pope is guaranteed infallability only in matters of faith and morals when speaking from the Chair.    We keep forgetting that.    By our actions, thoughts and criticisms, we are already judged.     Keep that in mind, especially all of you who snicker and drool with cynicism every time this Pope does this or that.

Quote
The point is, the SSPX can agree to these things in principle and wiggle around with their understanding.

Rome is not looking to mess over the SSPX here. I think Benedict wants them IN, and wants the bare minimum from them.

I think the SSPX risks slowly fading into irrelevancy if they don't take the offer and then work as a force for change in the Church. The Pope wants Trad allies in the Church.

This is a huge crossroads in Church history. I pray it turns out for the best!

We're in complete agreement, Stevus.     It is PRIDE that keeps the SSPX from accepting what is offered and proffered.    We will not serve!    That ancient declarative statement keeps coming back as echoes even in our age.    Pride was and will always be the downfall of whoever possesses it.

We only ask the SSPX to put aside what they believe makes them the superior Catholic, accept the invitation, come into the den of lions, tame them, and then work with other traditional Catholics (and forget you are the only Catholic), put aside differences, stop criticizing those who are not with you in spirit, and work for the restoration and the salvation of souls.    God expects that from you -- especially YOU (the four bishops).

If not, the schism is a done deal. 
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Walking_Home
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Posts: 136


« Reply #54 on: June 27, 2008, 09:25:AM »

We as humans are not really in a position to discern if an act comes from pride.  Only God can see into a persons heart to know if pride is present or not.   I suggest some stop playing God.
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Theresa
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« Reply #55 on: June 27, 2008, 09:44:AM »

Did anyone read Fr.  Laguérie's post on Rorate Caeli?  

It is a sad situation.  I have to agree with Stevus and Vincentius.

AND with Fr. Laguérie.

I am praying and offering up my daily duty for a good resolution.
 
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StevusMagnus
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« Reply #56 on: June 27, 2008, 10:04:AM »

Quote

Galarreta: "We will not follow it"; Let us "follow the steps"


The essential part of the Sermon pronounced by Bishop Alfonso de Galarreta, of the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Pius X (FSSPX / SSPX), for the ceremony of ordinations which took place this morning in Ecône:

The ultimatum of the Cardinal: to call this an "ultimatum" is to say too much. It is, for us, a desire to alarm us, to build pressure for a purely practical agreement. This way which they wish to impose upon us is a dead way and we will not follow it. We cannot commit [engager] to betray the profession of Faith nor to let ourselves be signed up for a demolition venture.

Our response to the Holy Father is thus to follow the steps with the known prerequisites and a doctrinal discussion. This will produce this answer: either a pause or a stagnation in our contacts with Rome, or a new condemnation - and we ask ourselves what -, or a withdrawal of the excommunications.

RORATE note: Let us wait for the actual text of the official response of the FSSPX, which will appear in due time.

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Tulkas
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"You wouldn’t like me when I’m angry.”


« Reply #57 on: June 27, 2008, 10:52:AM »

Not once in the blog comment did Bishop Williamson mention the 5 conditions.  This could mean two things.  One he is playing off of people's ignorance and hoping they do not know of the 5 things, and telling them it is about accepting VacII and the New Mass.  Two, since he is conspiracy minded, he is reading more into these 5 things than what is really there, i.e. accepting VacII and the New Mass.

By the way, I thought they already accept the validity of the New Mass according to Bishop Fellay, they just won't celebrate it.  So what is the issue here.

I see this all this whole discussions with Rome as a sport competition anyways.  Two teams meet up to play against each other, and each side comes up with certain rules an criteria they would like before they start playing.  SSPX has stated theirs, and now Rome states their criteria.  If the rules hampered one side, and directly caused the lose, then rematch with new rules.

You cannot win if you do not get out on the field or step on the mat and play or fight the game.

The Pope just does not want to enter discussions while at the same time being bad mouthed.  I mean this isn't Professional Wrestling where they constantly bad mouth each other before and after the match.  I expect more decorum and dignity within the Church.

Williamson really needs to explain what the 5 points are and why in his mind he thinks accepting them would  be bad, and why not accepting them would not be schismatic since all they are requiring is what every real Roman Catholic is required to do.
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DarkKnight
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« Reply #58 on: June 27, 2008, 11:47:AM »

Personally, and I know my opinion matters little, I will lose both patience and respect for the SSPX if they step on this olive branch with their satin slippers.

I believe that even their Founder would be aghast if they move forward with this hubris.
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AxxeArp
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Posts: 308


« Reply #59 on: June 27, 2008, 11:50:AM »

All,

Why does every argument on this site end with some negative about the pope? "But Ratzinger was friends with Hans Kung in 1964!", "But JPII kissed pagan babies at Assissi!", "But Paul VI sold the tiara to UN!", "But JP1 was a covert soviet yak yak yak

I've been listening to a lenten mission from an SSPX priest. He says that forgiving others is ESSENTIAL, that if we do not forgive, then the devil will keep bringing up their trespasses we will reflect on them from new and more horrible angles and become bitter. Why don't we try to take the priest's advice, forgive the popes for any wrongs against the Church, and stop bashing every pope since Pius XII. I must say I am going to puke if I see one more post about "JPII and the evils of Assissi".
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