Bishop Williamson on "the conditions"

[Walking_Home]

And anyways, just about a month ago, Pope Benedict XVI praised the American model of religious pluralism. That isn't exactly a traditional action. And even now, in a few days, he's going to have an Orthodox prelate doing a blessing with him in the Mass he will celebrate. That too isn't an orthodox action.

What excuse does this offer for refusing basic conditions of charity and respect and an honest progress towards doctrinal reconciliation? The society isn't being asked to abandon any article of the faith. They're being asked for those things which would be expected of any Catholic.

There's simply no excuse left. The state of necessity is gone.

And you have made yourself judge and jury to declare this. I suppose if the SSPX refuses and Rome does not act against them --- you will also declare yourself with the authority to pontificate the charge that they have "excommunicated" themselves by refusing.

[Dauphin]

And anyways, just about a month ago, Pope Benedict XVI praised the American model of religious pluralism. That isn't exactly a traditional action. And even now, in a few days, he's going to have an Orthodox prelate doing a blessing with him in the Mass he will celebrate. That too isn't an orthodox action.

What excuse does this offer for refusing basic conditions of charity and respect and an honest progress towards doctrinal reconciliation? The society isn't being asked to abandon any article of the faith. They're being asked for those things which would be expected of any Catholic.

There's simply no excuse left. The state of necessity is gone.

And you have made yourself judge and jury to declare this. I suppose if the SSPX refuses and Rome does not act against them --- you will also declare yourself with the authority to pontificate the charge that they have "excommunicated" themselves by refusing.

That'll be my position until Rome says otherwise. The schismatic Patriarch of Constantinople has more deference to the apostolic see than the society's Bishops.

[Cephas]

There will be a state of necessity until many a dead pontiff and many an ecumenical council is raised up from the category of 'disregarded in favor of things only post-Vat II AND in the spirit of Vat II' to 'let's take these things seriously as well'.

[PeterII]

And anyways, just about a month ago, Pope Benedict XVI praised the American model of religious pluralism. That isn't exactly a traditional action. And even now, in a few days, he's going to have an Orthodox prelate doing a blessing with him in the Mass he will celebrate. That too isn't an orthodox action.

What excuse does this offer for refusing basic conditions of charity and respect and an honest progress towards doctrinal reconciliation? The society isn't being asked to abandon any article of the faith. They're being asked for those things which would be expected of any Catholic.

There's simply no excuse left. The state of necessity is gone.

And you have made yourself judge and jury to declare this. I suppose if the SSPX refuses and Rome does not act against them --- you will also declare yourself with the authority to pontificate the charge that they have "excommunicated" themselves by refusing.

That'll be my position until Rome says otherwise. The schismatic Patriarch of Constantinople has more deference to the apostolic see than the society's Bishops.

Hah, you know why?  Because the schismatic Patriarch is smart enough to see how this false ecumenism undermines Catholic principles.  He is happy to support the Pope in wrecking the Catholic Church.  It serves his agenda. 

[Magdalene]

Time will tell on all this.

I do not see any demands made there to embrace the novus ordo or any of that.  What is needed is quiet talk to see what and where and how things can come into a canonical state.

The name calling --'perfect liberal' or worse yet, to call the Holy Father insane does not make for fertile soil for peaceful discussion.

I do not see subterfuge here; I see the beginnings of a reunification and the devil will (literally) be in the details for surely the evil one does  not want the SSPX to bring their richness to the Church as a whole. You see, there is that other aspect in that what the SSPX has to offer by safeguarding tradition could be lost to the Church at large if the stone throwing continues.

We need to be praying that something can be worked out in which so many souls can benefit.  It is time to set aside the bitterness and vitriol and let charity be the guide. I am not saying to compromise with truth but to be open to discussion in a peaceful manner at this time would be desireable.

The danger is for the SSPX to truly cut themselves off and can claim to be the true church all they want but when one leaves Peter, then things will not improve.  With the slowly expanding Latin Mass rites from societies who have that as their apostolate and with the faithful seminaries beginning to teach the Gregorian Rite, the need for and effectiveness of the SSPX will wain. Is that what is wanted? Does anyone benefit then?

[Baskerville]

How can these people call themselves Catholic?

The same could be asked about JPII when he prayed with Heretics in Assisi, prayed for the coming of the messiah in the Roman synogogue, kissed the koran, asked John the Baptist to pray for Islam, called voodoo one of the worlds great religions, was anointed with "sacred" cow dung, and prayed to the great thumb.

[Baskerville]

 

They're not officially in schism now, but a formal declaration will be coming.

Really you mean the Vatican is going to do more politicing to get a point across, despite what they have said in the past. Nah never.

[Baskerville]

The SSPX are so thoroughly in schism with the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, that they can't even accept the most basic conditions for charity and respect towards the Roman Pontiff.
.

Explain how people who have just followed the faith as it was practiced for two thousand years are in schism when the Modernists including the modern Popes have taught things that were called heresy in numerous Papal encyclicals of the past.

[StevusMagnus]

I am someone sympathetic to the SSPX and I attend masses at an SSPX chapel on occasion.

I think there are two different approaches to the problem clashing here just as they clashed in 1988. The SSPX wants to enter into deep discussions and have the fruits be formal Papal documents conforming VCII to Tradition before the SSPX enters. The Vatican/ Pope are already slammed busy and are not in the least interested in long drawn out doctrinal discussions with the SSPX. Rome wants a practical solution to this problem as soon as possible and under Benedict is bending over backwards to make that happen.

Bishop Fellay had previously laid down three pre-conditions for reconciliation. The first was freeing of the TLM. The Pope has done this and also freed all of the Trad sacraments and breviary, something even Bishop Fellay was surprised and pleased with. So that is accomplished.

The next pre-condition was the lifting of the excommunications. It is amazing to me that the Pope is apparently going in the order laid out by Bp. Fellay. In their last meeting He had said the excommunications would be taken care of with regularization. But now, I think the Pope is going step by step. He is ready to lift the excommunications and has laid out the 5 bare minimum assurances he would need to do so.

The SSPX accepting these 5 conditions tells the world that the things all the neo-cons have been saying all of these years about the SSPX is false. That they are not their own Church, that they recognize the Pope, etc.

The only condition I see as potentially problematic for them is #3:

3. A commitment to avoid the pretense of a Magisterium superior to the Holy Father and to not put forward the Fraternity [SSPX] in opposition to the Church.

     
I think the Vatican made these conditions ambiguous to help an agreement take place. But the SSPX hates ambiguity and will want to define things. If so why not define the statement in your response and then agree to it. Put the ball in Rome's court.

In response to this I would start by stating we accept the authentic magisterium of the Pope in all things that accord with Tradition. Since the Pope thinks everything he is saying is in accord with Tradition it shouldn't be a problem.

The point is, the SSPX can agree to these things in principle and wiggle around with their understanding.

Rome is not looking to mess over the SSPX here. I think Benedict wants them IN, and wants the bare minimum from them.

I think the SSPX risks slowly fading into irrelevancy if they don't take the offer and then work as a force for change in the Church. The Pope wants Trad allies in the Church.

This is a huge crossroads in Church history. I pray it turns out for the best!

[karyn_anne]

Even if the SSPX bishops hae engaged in (admittedly childish, as some might say) name-calling etc in response to the controversial actions on the part of prelates and the Pope, they still respect the Papacy and acknowledge its supremacy. Too bad their criticisms of Rome's dabbling in modernism have to be termed 'disobedience'.

Who are the true schismatics, i wonder? Those who knowingly accept religious ecumenism and liberalism (and thus cause the degradation of the Holy Catholic faith from its very root) or those who have been fighting to maintain true Catholic teaching under a label that was imposed by the former?