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Author Topic: Wasting time "Discerning about discerning?"  (Read 2682 times)
MeaMaximaCulpa
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« Reply #60 on: July 12, 2008, 10:07:PM »

Quote from: Catholic777
Quote
My son has Aspergers, and it can't clearly be recognized based on casual conversation.  If you lived with these men, sure, but you don't.  You are just casting pejorative attributes upon them because you aren't like them.

You are right, very often it is not at all obvious. But sometimes it is. The fact that it was so obvious in these men...means it must have been very severe, like my oldest cousin. And it was not "casual conversation". I have stayed at some of these places for month-long visits. And it does take a while to realize, but by the end it was obvious for several of the men, and I was suspicious about several others.

But, I'm no clinical psychologist, certainly, you're right. So I will refrain from amateur diagnosing from now on and just say that  it seemed these men:

had marked impairment in eye-to-eye gaze, facial expressivity, posture, and gesture,

did not seem to have appropriate peer relationships,

did not spontaneously seek to share enjoyment, interests, or achievements with people,

did not point out objects of interest or bring subjects of interest to conversation,

lacked social reciprocity,
 
had stereotyped interests and patterns of preoccupation that were abnormal in intensity and focus (that some of them happened to be religious obsessions makes it it no better),
 
had apparently inflexible adherence to specific, nonfunctional routines or rituals (that they happened to be nominally religious actions makes it no better),

had stereotyped and repetitive motor mannerisms including rocking and twitching.

You can draw your own conclusions.

I'd like to state that these traits are not "dead giveaways" for autistics.  Many have forced themselves to overcome them (such as making eye contact), or they can be corrected with early intervention.  I've met quite a few aspies who would be completely indistinguishable from 'normal' (I hate that word) individuals.
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Catholic777
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« Reply #61 on: July 12, 2008, 10:15:PM »

Quote
I'd like to state that these traits are not "dead giveaways" for autistics.  Many have forced themselves to overcome them (such as making eye contact), or they can be corrected with early intervention.  I've met quite a few aspies who would be completely indistinguishable from 'normal' (I hate that word) individuals.


Yes, some probably do "pass". But if you met men who did match that list of traits, as I met...you'd admit it's fair to assume something like that, yes?

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MeaMaximaCulpa
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« Reply #62 on: July 12, 2008, 10:23:PM »

Quote from: Tiny
Another problem is that the opportunities are endless, unless you're a traditional priest.  They don't have that seamless integration with society that would permit them to work with hockey or some other outside-the-box vocation.

Whatcha' talkin' about, Tiny?



They say Fr. Berg has quite a slapshot...
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MeaMaximaCulpa
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« Reply #63 on: July 12, 2008, 10:44:PM »

Quote from: Catholic777
Quote
I'd like to state that these traits are not "dead giveaways" for autistics.  Many have forced themselves to overcome them (such as making eye contact), or they can be corrected with early intervention.  I've met quite a few aspies who would be completely indistinguishable from 'normal' (I hate that word) individuals.

Yes, some probably do "pass". But if you met men who did match that list of traits, as I met...you'd admit it's fair to assume something like that, yes?


And what if I have?

I do not want to derail this topic, but I've seen the extremes of the autism spectrum (from Aspergers to Childhood Disintegrative Disorder) and a whole lot in between.  While your does contain many stereotypical behaviors, it is not an inclusive list ("head-banging" comes to mind).  Also, I don't think you grasp the concept of a spectrum disorder.  Your cousins may have been closer to the High-functioning autism/Asperger divide.  Others are far beyond that line, and as adults are virtually indistinguishable from the general population.  I've seen many 'normal' adults who also exhibit occasional autistic behaviors, yet they would not be considered 'autistic'.  Autism is not diagnosed like other disorders, like phobias.  Its far more complicated than looking at a list of behaviors.
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Catholicmilkman
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« Reply #64 on: July 12, 2008, 11:16:PM »

Quote from: MeaMaximaCulpa
Quote from: Catholic777
Quote
I'd like to state that these traits are not "dead giveaways" for autistics. Many have forced themselves to overcome them (such as making eye contact), or they can be corrected with early intervention. I've met quite a few aspies who would be completely indistinguishable from 'normal' (I hate that word) individuals.
Yes, some probably do "pass". But if you met men who did match that list of traits, as I met...you'd admit it's fair to assume something like that, yes?

And what if I have?

I do not want to derail this topic, but I've seen the extremes of the autism spectrum (from Aspergers to Childhood Disintegrative Disorder) and a whole lot in between. While your does contain many stereotypical behaviors, it is not an inclusive list ("head-banging" comes to mind). Also, I don't think you grasp the concept of a spectrum disorder. Your cousins may have been closer to the High-functioning autism/Asperger divide. Others are far beyond that line, and as adults are virtually indistinguishable from the general population. I've seen many 'normal' adults who also exhibit occasional autistic behaviors, yet they would not be considered 'autistic'.  Autism is not diagnosed like other disorders, like phobias.  Its far more complicated than looking at a list of behaviors.
Does anyone remember that news article from awhile back in which it was said that people with Autism "fit" with the Tridentine Mass.
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Catholic777
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« Reply #65 on: July 13, 2008, 11:07:AM »

Quote
Autism is not diagnosed like other disorders, like phobias.  Its far more complicated than looking at a list of behaviors.


I understand the concept of a spectrum disorder, and that for some people it may be very subtle.

But if someone met, as I did, men who exhibited rather extreme forms of those symptoms...you'd admit it's fair to assume that they're...well, something, right? If not autistic or aspies...then maybe something else. But you must admit that a consistent pattern of those listed behaviors I mentioned seeing is indicative of some pathology, yes?

Maybe not aspergers or autism. The symptoms seem consistent with those...but you're right, I dont know what exactly for sure, I'm no expert. But I do know that people acting in those ways I listed are something atypical and abnormal. I cant say for sure what, clinically speaking, they were. But a good proportion of traditional seminarians I've met were definitely something psychologically different. 

Which isnt necessarily bad in an individual, but at the same time...a disproportionate number of them in a rather isolated close-knit environment like a seminary or monastery can make other types of people feel uncomfortable with the awkward schemas of interaction and socially unsatisfied due to the lack in normal personal relationship dynamics.

I mean, I could get along with them and be friendly just fine on a shallow level. But it's more about an absence of things I need than the positive presence of any conflicts. Namely, it would be impossible for me to be close friends, which is to say have real personal intimacy, with these types of men because I dont think they know how. We would be absolutely constitutionally incompatible in terms of our needs and expectations and ability to provide for those in a friendship. And that is not the fraternal environment I'm looking for.

And yet contact with the outside world is restricted, especially the first year or years...so I couldnt satisfyingly maintain my outside friendships. And as that document from the Congregation for Consecrated Life said...unsatisfying personal communication and relationships within a community...can be fatal for vocations and fraternal charity and lead to people starting to seek major relationships primarily outside, which can degrade community cohesion.

They may get along with each other just fine, but at the same time I am frustrated that they seem to have something of a "monopoly" in certain types of seminaries and monasteries, when really that should accidental to the priesthood, religious life, and traditionalism, and that sort of homogeneity of mindset should be discouraged.

And I worry that superiors and even lay trads may be romanticizing these types of men because of their seemingly "robotic" precision, their obsessive focus in studies, their perfectionism in some areas, their quietness, their docility and malleability, their seeming asexuality, their unconcern with a lot of worldly things, etc. And may be confusing all this with holiness, since they can superficially appear similar. But when it comes naturally to people, when that's just their psyche or temperment...that isnt holiness, which is something you choose and work hard at, which is a struggle and suffering. Flagellation is not penance for a masochist, nor fasting for an anorexic. 

And I really fear seminary directors and superiors, even if not like this themselves (though some are)...are misguidedly idealizing this type of man above all others, and may be selecting for and encouraging a homogeneous atmosphere of these types of men just because they're "easy" to work with, at the expense of the challenge of a diversity of dynamic personalities.

Quote
Does anyone remember that news article from awhile back in which it was said that people with Autism "fit" with the Tridentine Mass.


I think so. And that's great for them. But at the same time I think it unfair and unhealthy to make it an "in club" where being like that is a requirement for fitting in, when really it is ultimately accidental to traditionalism.

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neel
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« Reply #66 on: July 13, 2008, 12:56:PM »

Quote from: Catholicmilkman
Does anyone remember that news article from awhile back in which it was said that people with Autism "fit" with the Tridentine Mass.


I do. Maybe we're all just Autistic.  
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Credo
Member

Posts: 6,513



« Reply #67 on: July 13, 2008, 05:57:PM »

All the traditional priests I've ever met were all very much "their own man." Every one I've met is extremely personable, humorous, well read and gentle. Frankly this goes for most of the NO priests I've met too. The only "weirdos" I've ever come across tend to be parishioners.

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N.B.: I will not be posting on this site again until the Christmas octave. Have a good Advent.
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