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Author Topic: If your in Detroit don't miss todays polka Mass  (Read 2300 times)
Robb
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« Reply #40 on: August 24, 2008, 09:47:PM »

 The Baroque does not need to lift one up to Heaven.  It represents heaven coming down amongst men in the form of the Catholic faith.













Just got to love it!

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Catholic777
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« Reply #41 on: August 24, 2008, 10:11:PM »

Quote
It represents heaven coming down amongst men in the form of the Catholic faith.

Hmm...and yet, there is nothing "down to earth" about it....

All I have to say, is that if I make it to heaven it will be Gothic. On the otherhand, if I wake up and things are baroque...I will know I am in a hell indeed.
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jovan66102
La foi Catholique d'abord! La mort à l'Islam!
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« Reply #42 on: August 24, 2008, 10:12:PM »

Quote from: Robb
 The Baroque does not need to lift one up to Heaven.  It represents heaven coming down amongst men in the form of the Catholic faith.

Just got to love it!


I agree, though I also like Romanesque and Gothic. However, I think Baroque is my favourite.
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Jovan-Marya Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!

Deum timete, regem honorificate.
Catholic777
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« Reply #43 on: August 24, 2008, 10:14:PM »

But there is nothing sacred about the Baroque.

Its art is naturalistic, and if you look away from the sanctuary...you could just as easily be in some 18th-century French salon or 19th-century Italian palace. Really, many secular palaces of decadent aristocratic types look just like baroque churches. That should tell you something. Churches should not feel like whorehouses.

Whereas, when you're in a gothic church...you know it's a church.

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Archbishop_10K
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« Reply #44 on: August 25, 2008, 02:06:AM »

Quote from: Catholic777
Its art is naturalistic, and if you look away from the sanctuary...you could just as easily be in some 18th-century French salon or 19th-century Italian palace. Really, many secular palaces of decadent aristocratic types look just like baroque churches. That should tell you something. Churches should not feel like whorehouses.

Whereas, when you're in a gothic church...you know it's a church.

I dunno, C777. There are a few castles in Europe (especially England and France) which look kind of like Gothic churches inside. I don't have any examples off the top of my head, but if I find one, I'll post it back here.
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Catholic777
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« Reply #45 on: August 25, 2008, 10:43:AM »

Ah, the castles feel like churches. Yes. Exactly. Good. It should be that way. Just not the other way around, if you see my point.

The Baroque profanizes the sacred; the churches feel like palaces. But the Gothic sacralizes the secular; the castles feel like churches. It's definitely a one way relationship, and that's the direction it goes in for each respective style.

When I'm in a baroque church, I often feel something like "this is sorta like Versailles," let's say. When I am in Versailles, however, I do not think "this feels like a church". On the otherhand, when I see pictures of Windsor Castle, let's say, I think "medieval cathedral"...when I am in a medieval cathedral, however, my mind does not jump to "Windsor Castle".

The Gothic therefore makes the sacred the standard, the assumption...and the secular is raised up to it. Whereas the Baroque makes the secular the baseline and then brings the sacred down to its own opulent level.
 
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Catholicmilkman
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« Reply #46 on: August 25, 2008, 04:10:PM »

Quote from: Catholic777
The Baroque profanizes the sacred; the churches feel like palaces. But the Gothic sacralizes the secular; the castles feel like churches. It's definitely a one way relationship, and that's the direction it goes in for each respective style.
This sound ridiculous. Now Gothic is sacred? When was that dogma defined? I don't care what a church building looks like as long as it's not modernistic/formless.

Quote
When I'm in a baroque church, I often feel something like "this is sorta like Versailles," let's say. When I am in Versailles, however, I do not think "this feels like a church". On the otherhand, when I see pictures of Windsor Castle, let's say, I think "medieval cathedral"...when I am in a medieval cathedral, however, my mind does not jump to "Windsor Castle".
You would if Windsor Castle was the first Gothic building you saw and you didn't know anything about Catholic culture. I think these things ought to be naturally diverse according to a people's culture. An Gothic church would not look good in Ireland just as much as a simple stone church would not look like in France nor would a Gothic church fit in the Byzantine Empire or a Greek dome look good in France or England. Some things are just cultural in time and place.

Quote
The Gothic therefore makes the sacred the standard, the assumption...and the secular is raised up to it. Whereas the Baroque makes the secular the baseline and then brings the sacred down to its own opulent level.
I believe the Sacred can raise anything and everything with natural beauty to itself according to the saying "Grace lifts nature and does not destroy it". Like you're saying Baroque doesn't even have natural beauty. I don't know its definition I can't say. I know Gothic generally or at least I think I do. Just my opinion though because I'm not even an amateur.
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Catholic777
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« Reply #47 on: August 25, 2008, 04:44:PM »

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Like you're saying Baroque doesn't even have natural beauty.

No. It does. That's the problem, actually: its beauty is naturalistic, not supernatural.

Its gross "realism" (read: naturalism) makes it so.
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Catholicmilkman
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« Reply #48 on: August 25, 2008, 05:12:PM »

Quote from: Catholic777
Quote
Like you're saying Baroque doesn't even have natural beauty.
No. It does. That's the problem, actually: its beauty is naturalistic, not supernatural.

Its gross "realism" (read: naturalism) makes it so.
I'm not understanding what you mean. Being "naturalistic" is not having natural beauty. The heresy of naturalism excludes all natural beauty ultamintly. Catholic supernaturalism includes all natural beauty or can by grace which raises it to supernatural beauty, no? Natural (not naturalistic) beauty can be raised to the supernatural beauty. If it cannot be raised to the supernatural level then it is obviously not even naturally beautiful. Such is modernism, which is a destruction of even the natural order.
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Catholic777
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« Reply #49 on: August 25, 2008, 06:55:PM »

One thing you will notice about First Millennium iconography (and still in the East)...is that it is stylized, not realistic. Because the point was not to create a "photographic" representation, but one rich in symbolism; to be otherworldly. The Classical model that the Renaissance introduced and the Baroque took up...is based on pagan glorification of the material, the human body, the triumphs of our technology and artistry and wealth. And that is naturalistic at its root. The Baroque is also triumphalistic inasmuch as it trumpets and flaunts mere temporal success and human ability. Which is why the Church's became more like palaces, monuments to the glory of the particular benefactor, and the music like concerts to show off the talents of composers. Instead of serving worship, the worship became merely an excuse to show off bombastic human artistry.

Chant is anonymous. Icons are anonymous. Gothic cathedrals are anonymous. They were products of the whole Church, of the whole culture of Christendom.

On the other hand, we all know it was Michaelangelo's St. Peter's Basillica, Cerravagio's painting The Crucifixion of St. Peter, Mozart's Requiem. It's all about men showing off, about humanistic individualism, not the glory of God.
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