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Author Topic: Can Anyone Show Me One Or More Parts of The Ordinary Of The Novus Ordo Missal That Is Contrary To Catholicism ?  (Read 19073 times)
Catholicmilkman
Guest
« Reply #90 on: August 24, 2008, 07:34:PM »

Quote from: jovan66102
While I hate to agree with our sede friends, they are right. Either the NOM is a valid Mass promulgated by a valid Pope or it is an evil thing promulgated by someone who was obviously not a valid Pope. CM, get over it! Make up your mind. Accept the NOM or become a sede. There is no middle ground!
There is the SSPX. If there's no middle ground, how do they even exist? I agree with the SSPX position the Pope was not and is not infallible just in promulgating a Missal! This is not a very hard thing to comprehend. The Pope is only infallible on Ex Cathredra statements and repeated statements of the Church's universal ordinary Magisterium. Church government/discipline is not infallible. This is why John Paul could have been wrong on Archbishop Lefebrve. By this sad logic both of these apostolic acts are infallible, no? But the Church makes it clear that the Pope is not infallible on discipline. The Church on earth is generally indefectible in her divine mission and disciplines but not universally in everything that the hierarchy puts down. I believe this means that there will always been some portion (even a remnant as the Scriptures say) of the Church that will practice the true and proper disciplines and Mission if perchance the visible head and/or the majority of the Church personally defects. The Arian heresy made this painfully clear concerning the majority of the bishops, at least seemly, including the Bishop of Rome.
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StevusMagnus
Guest
« Reply #91 on: August 24, 2008, 07:36:PM »

CMM,

Even if what you say is true you've only established that the Pope is not infallible in promulgating a missal. You would then need to demonstrate conclusively the Mass should not be attended. Even in non-infallible acts the Church and Pope can be followed as free from error to a moral certainty.

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Tiny
Guest
« Reply #92 on: August 24, 2008, 07:41:PM »

Quote from: StevusMagnus
CMM,

Even if what you say is true you've only established that the Pope is not infallible in promulgating a missal. You would then need to demonstrate conclusively the Mass should not be attended. Even in non-infallible acts the Church and Pope can be followed as free from error to a moral certainty.

I don't think the SSPX is saying that the NO missal is intrinsically evil; cf. with Michael Davies' privilege of the ordained (re. communion in the hand).

My point is that the context of the NO missal might make it evil in some other way, an evil which would not touch on the infallibility of the magisterium.  And not necessarily "evil" but "inappropriate" or another word.
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NorthernTrad
Member

Gender: Male
Location: Maine, USA
Posts: 1,767



« Reply #93 on: August 24, 2008, 07:46:PM »

Quote from: StevusMagnus
CMM,

Even if what you say is true you've only established that the Pope is not infallible in promulgating a missal. You would then need to demonstrate conclusively the Mass should not be attended. Even in non-infallible acts the Church and Pope can be followed as free from error to a moral certainty.

Ding Ding!  Nice work Stevus!  This is exactly what I was trying to say earlier, but not as clearly as you've summed it up.  You and I are on definitely different sides of what conclusions this means, but there is no "half way" pick and choose on this point. 
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"I'm back sinners."

“Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ.” - St. Athanasius, AD 373

"It is granted to few to recognize the true Church amid the darkness of so many schisms and heresies, and to fewer still so to love the truth which they have seen as to fly to its embrace." -St. Robert Bellarmine
donumabdeo
Member

Posts: 266


« Reply #94 on: August 24, 2008, 07:47:PM »

Quote from: Catholicmilkman
Quote from: jovan66102
While I hate to agree with our sede friends, they are right. Either the NOM is a valid Mass promulgated by a valid Pope or it is an evil thing promulgated by someone who was obviously not a valid Pope. CM, get over it! Make up your mind. Accept the NOM or become a sede. There is no middle ground!
There is the SSPX. If there's no middle ground, how do they even exist? I agree with the SSPX position the Pope was not and is not infallible just in promulgating a Missal! This is not a very hard thing to comprehend. The Pope is only infallible on Ex Cathredra statements and repeated statements of the Church's universal ordinary Magisterium. Church government/discipline is not infallible. This is why John Paul could have been wrong on Archbishop Lefebrve. By this sad logic both of these apostolic acts are infallible, no? But the Church makes it clear that the Pope is not infallible on discipline. The Church on earth is generally indefectible in her divine mission and disciplines but not universally in everything that the hierarchy puts down. I believe this means that there will always been some portion (even a remnant as the Scriptures say) of the Church that will practice the true and proper disciplines and Mission if perchance the visible head and/or the majority of the Church personally defects. The Arian heresy made this painfully clear concerning the majority of the bishops, at least seemly, including the Bishop of Rome.

I see your hang-up.  What I have emboldened is patently false.  Here are a couple of quotes to prove the fact (There are others to be found in this thread.):

Pius XII's 1943 encyclical Mystici Corporis Christi, paragraph 66, "Certainly the loving Mother [Holy Roman Catholic Church] is spotless in the Sacraments, by which she gives birth to and nourishes her children; in the faith which she has always preserved inviolate; in her sacred laws imposed upon all,"

Assertion 3: The Church's infallibility extends to the general discipline of the Church. This proposition is theologically certain. - Monsignor Van Noort (To say that it is theologically certain is to say that it is the general opinion of the theologians of the Church throughout the ages, excepting of course the present age, in which it is nearly impossible to draw conclusions in such a fashion as this with all the rebellion among the hierarchy and so on.)

Also, like I said before in the post on the top of this very page, there was moral unanimity among the hierarchy members of the NO Church wearing red after the promulgation, and that would constitute a Universal Ordinary magisterial teaching, if there were a valid head at the time.

Also, you are bound to accept that teaching by Pope Pius IX under penalty of sin as has been proved by Msgr. Fenton:

http://tinyurl.com/4q496t
http://tinyurl.com/4xg3nx

(Edited for grammar and clarity.)
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Pray the Rosary, secure your salvation.

http://www.talmudunmasked.com/index.htm - Father I. B. Pranaitis, this section is specifically of interest: http://www.talmudunmasked.com/chapter15.htm

The Alta Vendita - Ordered to be published by Leo XIII - http://www.tanbooks.com/index.php/page/shop:flypage/product_id/547/

The Protocols of the Elders of Zion - Believed to be valid by Cardinal Caro Rodriguez (circa 1925) - http://www.iamthewitness.com/Protocols-of-Zion.htm

I suggest others to read: Msgr. Dillon in his work: Grand Orient Freemasonry as the Secret Power Behind Communism.  - http://tinyurl.com/6gurl2  (entire e-book!)

Encyclicals : Humanum Genus, Inimica Vis, and Custodi di Quella Fede

The Mystery of Freemasonry Unveiled by Cardinal Caro Rodriguez  - http://www.angeluspress.org/oscatalog/item/7056/mystery-of-freemasonry-unveiled

Qui habet aures audiendi, audiat.


NorthernTrad
Member

Gender: Male
Location: Maine, USA
Posts: 1,767



« Reply #95 on: August 24, 2008, 07:47:PM »

Quote from: jovan66102

While I hate to agree with our sede friends, they are right. Either the NOM is a valid Mass promulgated by a valid Pope or it is an evil thing promulgated by someone who was obviously not a valid Pope. CM, get over it! Make up your mind. Accept the NOM or become a sede. There is no middle ground!

A simple, common sense response.  Nice jovan!

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"I'm back sinners."

“Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ.” - St. Athanasius, AD 373

"It is granted to few to recognize the true Church amid the darkness of so many schisms and heresies, and to fewer still so to love the truth which they have seen as to fly to its embrace." -St. Robert Bellarmine
NorthernTrad
Member

Gender: Male
Location: Maine, USA
Posts: 1,767



« Reply #96 on: August 24, 2008, 07:47:PM »

Quote from: neel
Quote from: jovan66102
While I hate to agree with our sede friends, they are right.


Sedes and Indultarians (coined by HMiS) agreeing?! No stinking way. Weird.

Unity at last!  Ha!

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"I'm back sinners."

“Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ.” - St. Athanasius, AD 373

"It is granted to few to recognize the true Church amid the darkness of so many schisms and heresies, and to fewer still so to love the truth which they have seen as to fly to its embrace." -St. Robert Bellarmine
NorthernTrad
Member

Gender: Male
Location: Maine, USA
Posts: 1,767



« Reply #97 on: August 24, 2008, 07:51:PM »

Quote from: confiteor1

I'm not a Sede (and I'm not sure if I really qualify as an "Indultarian"), yet I appreciate the intellectual integrity of the Sede position. I have come to the conclusion that the SSPX position is incoherent.

Beware the pope-sifters. 

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"I'm back sinners."

“Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ.” - St. Athanasius, AD 373

"It is granted to few to recognize the true Church amid the darkness of so many schisms and heresies, and to fewer still so to love the truth which they have seen as to fly to its embrace." -St. Robert Bellarmine
gjwalberg
Guest
« Reply #98 on: August 24, 2008, 08:03:PM »

Quote from: donumabdeo
There have been times when I have wondered whether there were some general sincere thinking in this way concerning us "nutjobs", and I have finally concluded that there can be no question that people speak and think in this way purely defensively for fear of losing their ever precious position.  It's not that our position is senseless, because not only do they not attack it based on the very tradition that we hold as a common ground, since they cannot except by misinterpreting Sacred Scripture, but they even also are willing to concede that our position is logically consistent.  What a tiresome attitude it must be to hold that persists in persecuting the ones who seek to defend Our Lord through His Church's most holy tradition.

Such thin skin!  I liked you better when you were banned. 

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Catholicmilkman
Guest
« Reply #99 on: August 24, 2008, 08:10:PM »

Quote from: donumabdeo
Concerning CMM's last assertion from the quote, that there is no way to know the hearts of the last four, it is positively clear that the law presumes guilt on behalf of the offenders, and that among those who persist in communicatio in sacris, there can be no question that they are ipso facto excommunicated. 
Popes are above the Law as they are the Lawmakers. Canon law can hold nothing on them since Canon law derives all authority from St. Peter's. As My Catholic Faith catechism states: The Pope is responsible to God alone. The Pope is not above Divine Law however.

Quote
With that said, if, however, the valid[ity] of form for the NOM was in fact the crux of the matter as CMM suggests
No! That is not what I suggest at all. The validity of the Latin missal is impossible to doubt. It is its orthodoxy and Catholicity, it's "doctrinal exactitude" as the so-called 1984 Indult called it. It's orthodoxy alone is what I doubt.

Quote
The past two sitting in St. Peter's chair, so to speak, including the present one, have excommunicated virtually no one for heresy, even concerning the heretics teaching seminaries, at a time when there is and has been more heresy than ever before.  They have hidden pedophiles, they have engaged in false ecumenism, et al.  Look at the signs. 
Oddly enough they have excommunicated women for "ordinations".

Quote
Though, if I were compelled to argue on validity, strictly based on the form of the "promulgation", I would say that since exactly the same form used by PVI was used by St. P. V. to ensure validity, and that, since there has been absolute moral unanimity among those of the hierarchy of the Novus Ordo Church who wear red concerning the subject, there can be absolutely no doubt that, if P. VI were a valid pope, the NOM would be a valid missal,..
Ah. But Cardinals Bacci and Ottaviani publically doubted the missal's orthodoxy and Catholicity with others of high Office as well. Cardinal Bacci never retracted it and Cardinal Ottaviani's retraction is reasonibly doubtful, likely got by fraud.

Quote
While calling the NOM and VII heretical in any way is not allowed here
Who said? Do the rules of this forum state this, if so where?

Quote from: StevusMagnus
Would a God who St. John tells us IS love, allow the very Church He founded and promised to be with till the end of time, promulgate an EVIL rite of Mass?
Well, since our present Holy Father is clear that it is not a rite but only a form or missal, I will say, no? Where has the Church promulgated it either? From what I can see the Church refuses to even accept it for the most part in her members, both traditionals and liberals at least in practice if not in principle.
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