Can Anyone Show Me One Or More Parts of The Ordinary Of The Novus Ordo Missal That Is Contrary To Catholicism ?

[Whitey]

So, how is the NO Mass itself "intristically evil" ?

In the New Mass the priest genuflects after he has presented the Host to the congregation. In the old Mass he does upon the Consecration. Many have taken the modern practice to imply a subtle endorsement of consubstantiation, as if the congregations assent was necessary for the priests words to take effect.

The best anyone could do over on CA forum

Please, please do not quote the Catholic Answer forums as an authority in anything.

was to point to the Preparation of the Gifts, saying the prayer(preparation of the wine) "sounds like" and "is based on" Jewish prayers.

This is true, except the conditional wording should be removed. The preparatory prayer are from Judaism. This should be disturbing to anyone with a sensus catholicus.

From page 181 of Tho. A. Droleskey's GIRM Warfare, 2005:

Paragraph 178 [of the GIRM] deals with what is called in the Novus Ordo the "Liturgy of the Eucharist." It is called the "Mass of the Faithful" in the Traditional Latin Mass. The Offertory Prayers of tradition have been gutted, as I noted in an earlier installment in this series. In fact, the Novus Ordo's much simplified (and sanitized) prayers for the "Preparation of the Gifts" come from Jewish liturgical services. Pope Paul VI desired at some point in the Mass to make some gesture toward the people of the Old Covenant, ignoring the fact that Our Lord superseded the Mosaic Covenant with the New and Eternal Testament.

CA ? I agree it's not the best source of info. That's why I posted here instead of there. I knew I'd get replys from those who actually think before they type.

Now, the prayer in question.......
Thing is, Catholic Doctrine is right there in the prayer. So, the prayer is, catholic. What Jew would embrace that prayer ? To do so would be a rejection of his own faith would it not ?

As far as the Consecration, the only thing I'd question is the Pro multis issue. But I see your point regarding the genuflection, I was not aware of that issue. Thanks for pointing it out, as it is a valid concern.

[Whitey]

Trad Robert Sungenis on the Novus Ordo:

http://www.catholicintl.com/qa/qa.htm#Question%2012%20-%20Should%20I%20Attend%20the%20Novus%20Ordo

R. Sungenis: The word “sacrifice” or its equivalents appear over 10 times in the Novus Ordo. There is no “de-emphasis” on the sacrificial. That is a myth propagated by various people with their own agenda. Don’t believe everything you read. Check it out for yourself. The Novus Ordo Mass is a valid and legitimate Mass that confects the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, and it is worthy of our attendance. What is not worthy of our attendance is when today’s liberals desecrate the Novus Ordo with all their worldly accretions.
 
There is nothing objectively wrong with the Novus Ordo. Those who say it is sacrilegious and blasphemous are themselves blaspheming a Mass that God has allowed to be practiced in the Church by dogmatic order of the supreme pontiff. If you compare the Traditional Mass with the Novus Ordo, side by side, except for a few places, they are almost the same. I’ve done the study on this and can confirm its accuracy. It is not the Mass that is the problem. It is the people who are the problem. It is people who abuse the Novus Ordo, and until the Vatican puts the clamps on these renegades, we will continue to have the same problems. The Catholic Church, for the last 40 years, has been very lax in disciplining its wayward members. Until that happens, no change will occur.

Hard to refute that view.

[Whitey]

Ok, here's one way I would like you guys to look at the issue.

Today, what are the common objections to the TLM? From the Neo-Cons you would likely hear that

A) The Mass should be in the vernacular
B) Not enough readings throughout the year (esp. from the Old Testament)

The TLM could easily, easily, have been changed to accomodate these demands by:
A) A faithful vernacular translation
B) The introduction of an additional reading each day

Why were the various Priest's "private" prayers suppressed (e.g. prayers at the foot of the Altar, various offertory and communion prayers), why was the double confiteor changed?  Such changes could only reflect pressure from theological grounds.

One of the reasons I prefer the Gregorian Rite is the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar. Kind of a "first things first" mentality I find very appropriate.

[Catholicmilkman]

Trad Robert Sungenis on the Novus Ordo:

http://www.catholicintl.com/qa/qa.htm#Question%2012%20-%20Should%20I%20Attend%20the%20Novus%20Ordo

R. Sungenis: The word “sacrifice” or its equivalents appear over 10 times in the Novus Ordo. There is no “de-emphasis” on the sacrificial. That is a myth propagated by various people with their own agenda. Don’t believe everything you read. Check it out for yourself. The Novus Ordo Mass is a valid and legitimate Mass that confects the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, and it is worthy of our attendance. What is not worthy of our attendance is when today’s liberals desecrate the Novus Ordo with all their worldly accretions.
 
There is nothing objectively wrong with the Novus Ordo. Those who say it is sacrilegious and blasphemous are themselves blaspheming a Mass that God has allowed to be practiced in the Church by dogmatic order of the supreme pontiff. If you compare the Traditional Mass with the Novus Ordo, side by side, except for a few places, they are almost the same. I’ve done the study on this and can confirm its accuracy. It is not the Mass that is the problem. It is the people who are the problem. It is people who abuse the Novus Ordo, and until the Vatican puts the clamps on these renegades, we will continue to have the same problems. The Catholic Church, for the last 40 years, has been very lax in disciplining its wayward members. Until that happens, no change will occur.

Hard to refute that view.

Oh, it's easy. Church discipline is NEVER dogmatic. And even Pope Paul VI said so:

11. It is not so. Absolutely not. Above all, because the rite and the relative rubric are not in themselves a dogmatic definition...... http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/P6601119.HTM

Robert Sungenis is a good-intentioned Catholic and apologist but he is a man and so can error. Furthermore a form or missal for a rite is not a Mass by itself properly speaking. The Mass is the Divine Action of Christ through His priests on His Holy Altars.

[Tiny]

Trad Robert Sungenis on the Novus Ordo:

http://www.catholicintl.com/qa/qa.htm#Question%2012%20-%20Should%20I%20Attend%20the%20Novus%20Ordo

R. Sungenis: The word “sacrifice” or its equivalents appear over 10 times in the Novus Ordo. There is no “de-emphasis” on the sacrificial. That is a myth propagated by various people with their own agenda. Don’t believe everything you read. Check it out for yourself. The Novus Ordo Mass is a valid and legitimate Mass that confects the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, and it is worthy of our attendance. What is not worthy of our attendance is when today’s liberals desecrate the Novus Ordo with all their worldly accretions.
 
There is nothing objectively wrong with the Novus Ordo. Those who say it is sacrilegious and blasphemous are themselves blaspheming a Mass that God has allowed to be practiced in the Church by dogmatic order of the supreme pontiff. If you compare the Traditional Mass with the Novus Ordo, side by side, except for a few places, they are almost the same. I’ve done the study on this and can confirm its accuracy. It is not the Mass that is the problem. It is the people who are the problem. It is people who abuse the Novus Ordo, and until the Vatican puts the clamps on these renegades, we will continue to have the same problems. The Catholic Church, for the last 40 years, has been very lax in disciplining its wayward members. Until that happens, no change will occur.

Hard to refute that view.

Again, I would say that he's sophistically igoring the eliminated rubrics and prayers.  That is to say, going from the NO, you might find concordance with the TLM i.e. prayer X in the new missal is in the old, but going in the other direction you will find glaring and obvious omissions.

Maybe this weekend I will do a thorough comparison of the two missals myself to see how many times sacrifice, oblation, etc. is mentioned.

[StevusMagnus]

Again, I would say that he's sophistically igoring the eliminated rubrics and prayers.  That is to say, going from the NO, you might find concordance with the TLM i.e. prayer X in the new missal is in the old, but going in the other direction you will find glaring and obvious omissions.

Maybe this weekend I will do a thorough comparison of the two missals myself to see how many times sacrifice, oblation, etc. is mentioned.

Tiny, just because some thing are omitted doesn't necessarily mean the end product is EVIL.

I agree the NO is inferior to TLM, but inferior is a far cry from EVIL.

[Tiny]

Again, I would say that he's sophistically igoring the eliminated rubrics and prayers.  That is to say, going from the NO, you might find concordance with the TLM i.e. prayer X in the new missal is in the old, but going in the other direction you will find glaring and obvious omissions.

Maybe this weekend I will do a thorough comparison of the two missals myself to see how many times sacrifice, oblation, etc. is mentioned.

Tiny, just because some thing are omitted doesn't necessarily mean the end product is EVIL.

I agree the NO is inferior to TLM, but inferior is a far cry from EVIL.

I can see that where we depart is that some people examine the Novus Ordo in an ahistorical, ahistoriographical vacuum.  Given this viewpoint I agree that the Novus Ordo is not intrinsically evil (at least in the latin).

However, I believe that's my only obligation, to believe that the Novus Ordo is not intrinsically evil (at least in the latin).  I can call it all sorts of other evil, just not intrinsically evil.

[PeterII]

Does the consensus opinion of Fish Eaters have any bearing as to whether the Rite is intrinsically evil?

Fisheaters all seem to agree that the Novus Ordo is deficient in some sort of way compared to the Tridentine.  Is deficiency a good or bad thing? Obviously it is a bad attribute, especially in matters of theology.  It is an inadequate expression of our Faith and the fruits are evident.  No other rite in the Catholic Church has ever been said to diminish the Faith.   

I don't have time to go over Mediator Dei now and things in the Council of Trent that I would like to because of travelling, but will try to do so in a few days.

"It is not the Mass that is the problem. It is the people who are the problem."

The Ottaviani Intervention report did not criticize abuses of the Novus Ordo, it criticized the Novus Ordo in itself. 

Those who say it is sacrilegious and blasphemous are themselves blaspheming a Mass that God has allowed to be practiced in the Church by dogmatic order of the supreme pontiff.

Dogmatic order?  Sungenis is a papaloter who is superstitious.  Authorities have the free will to abuse their authority.  God does not stop free will with "Jesus Magic."

 

[jonkknox]

Is it not the teaching of the Catholic Church that good cannot come from evil? If the Novus Ordo has a valid consecration, it means that Our Lord is brought to the altar- the miracle of transubstantiation happens and the Sacrifice is offered to the Blessed Trinity.

How can something that is inherently evil bring about the greatest good? And I don't particularly care about the "Satanic Black Mass" deal. When was the last time a validly ordained priest celebrated a Satanic Mass??

Somebody correct me if I am wrong.

[Tiny]

Is it not the teaching of the Catholic Church that good cannot come from evil? If the Novus Ordo has a valid consecration, it means that Our Lord is brought to the altar- the miracle of transubstantiation happens and the Sacrifice is offered to the Blessed Trinity.

How can something that is inherently evil bring about the greatest good? And I don't particularly care about the "Satanic Black Mass" deal. When was the last time a validly ordained priest celebrated a Satanic Mass??

Somebody correct me if I am wrong.