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Author Topic: Can Anyone Show Me One Or More Parts of The Ordinary Of The Novus Ordo Missal That Is Contrary To Catholicism ?  (Read 19012 times)
neel
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« Reply #50 on: August 23, 2008, 12:45:PM »

http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/post/apologia/vpost?id=2398827

The sedes dominated this thread.
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confiteor1
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« Reply #51 on: August 23, 2008, 01:08:PM »

Quote
If anyone says that the ceremonies, vestments, and outward  signs, which the Catholic Church uses in the celebration of Masses, are  incentives to impiety rather than the services of piety: let him be  anathema. (Denziger 954.)
 
 That anathema was written  against Protestants who rejected the Tridentine Mass. It did not  anticipate the current crisis associated with the NOM.
 
 It is  also questionable to assert that the Typical Edition of the NOM is  strictly speaking an incentive to impiety, its lamentable composition  notwithstanding.
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Catholicmilkman
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« Reply #52 on: August 23, 2008, 01:44:PM »

Quote from: confiteor1
Quote
If anyone says that the ceremonies, vestments, and outward signs, which the Catholic Church uses in the celebration of Masses, are incentives to impiety rather than the services of piety: let him be anathema. (Denziger 954.)
That anathema was written against Protestants who rejected the Tridentine Mass. It did not anticipate the current crisis associated with the NOM.
It also didn't anticipate the NOM itself.

Quote
It is also questionable to assert that the Typical Edition of the NOM is strictly speaking an incentive to impiety, its lamentable composition notwithstanding.
And yet that is exactly what it has done for the last forty years, no? Impiety abounds and that is lamentable. This tells me that it's not Catholic.
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Catholicmilkman
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« Reply #53 on: August 23, 2008, 01:50:PM »

Quote from: neel
Milkman, its becoming quite obvious that you don't understand the way the Church's infallibility works. You need to sit down with some pre-Vatican II sources and try to get a grip on the reality of the situation. You're making a million and one arguments as to why you can think the NO is evil but still not become a sede. For the sake of being consistent, you just can't hold this position. All the evidence suggests otherwise.
It's quite obvious that you don't understand what is a universal law just like many others. I'm consistent, you are the one that is not; why you do come to this forum and call yourself a traditional Catholic when you don't even believe what this forum's confession of faith for us is? Talk about inconsistency. I believe with faith not with evidence alone, neel. It is only your deluded and erroneous opinions that suggest otherwise.
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confiteor1
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« Reply #54 on: August 23, 2008, 02:10:PM »

Cm,
 
  Although the Council of Trent did not anticipate the NOM and its abuses, we must take the anathema seriously.
 
  We can say that the NOM is deficient in its composition and thus an  unworthy liturgical setting for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.  However, we cannot say that the NOM is an "incentive to impiety" because it is in point of fact a composition of "ceremonies and outward signs" used by the Church to offer the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, and as such falls under the definition of Canon 7.
 
  Thus, if we say that the NOM in the Typical Edition promulgated by Pope Paul VI is per se an "incentive to impiety", then we are heretics and rightfully anathematized.
 
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neel
Guest
« Reply #55 on: August 23, 2008, 02:31:PM »

Quote from: Catholicmilkman
It's quite obvious that you don't understand what is a universal law just like many others.


No, YOU don't understand what a universal law is.  Did you read post 49?  Here it is, in case you missed it: http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/post/apologia/show_single_post?pid=28177832&postcount=49


Quote from: Catholicmilkman
It also didn't anticipate the NOM itself.


It doesn't matter whether the canon anticipated anything or not:  if Paul VI was the pope (your argument), then the NO is a valid, licit, beneficial to salvation.  You are calling it evil and avoiding it like the plague.  You are in fact violating the canon from Trent.  If I were not a sede, I would say you have anathamatized yourself.  Lucky for you, I am a sede, and this means I don't think you have incurred excommunication for holding your position.  But if I'm wrong about sedevacantism, then you're outside the Church for violating the canon of the Council of Trent.

Confiteor1 summed it up perfectly from a non-sede view.  This is the only view open to non-sedevacantists:

Quote from: confiteor1
Thus, if we say that the NOM in the Typical Edition promulgated by Pope Paul VI is per se an "incentive to impiety", then we are heretics and rightfully anathematized.


And I think I finally found the argument that non-sedes can use to blast us sedes.  Next time you're bashing sedevacantism, don't bring up any pope issue.  All you have to do is ask the sede what they think about the NO.  You of course know what they will say, and you can blast them with Canon 7.  If you sedeplenists are right, then we sedes really are heretics.  But then so is the SSPX's official stance.

I suppose you could call it a line in the sand.




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Catholicmilkman
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« Reply #56 on: August 23, 2008, 02:33:PM »

Quote from: Fr. Anthony Cekada
The term “universal,” moreover, as applied to a church law, does not refer to the “rite” where a law has force, but rather to the territory where it has force. A standard pre-Vatican II commentary on the Code gives the following division for law:

III. By reason of its extension [ambitus] into: a) universal, which applies in the whole Catholic world; b) particular which has force in a certain limited territory only. (Wernz-Vidal, Ius Canonicum 1:50.)
I don't see where the NO applies to the whole Catholic word. Please, explain to me how that is so when not even all Roman priests have to offer it? In theory all Roman priest could reject it so I don't see how it's particular but that for another discussion.

Quote
The same commentary speaks of disciplinary laws which it terms “universal,” even though Eastern Rites are automatically exempt from observing them:

Although Greek Catholics are indeed bound by definitions of Catholic doctrine regarding faith and morals, they are nevertheless not bound by disciplinary laws, even universal ones, unless something is laid down for them [the Greeks], or express mention is made of them, or unless the law for the matter regulated is implicitly extended to them also. (1:148. My emphasis.)
This is illogical. If the Eastern Catholic Churches are not bound by universal laws then how are they universal in the first since they don't apply "in the whole Catholic world"? This is a common illogic I've seen with many self-proclaimed theologians.

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Further, in discussing the secondary object of the Church’s infallibility, the authors treat liturgical laws for the Latin Rite as protected by infallibility, without any further qualification.
Who are these authors and what is their guarantee of infallibility? Mere theologians do not have guaranteed infallibility by the Church and Her Faith.

Quote
It would thus appear one could not “save” Paul VI by dismissing the errors and evils of his Novus Ordo as some sort of local aberration approved by him in his capacity as Patriarch of the West.
There is not need to save Paul VI. He was the Pope and as such simply held an Office in which he may have saved himself or not. I hope he did. Lord, grant Thy servant eternal rest.

Quote
If anyone says that the ceremonies, vestments, and outward signs, which the Catholic Church uses in the celebration of Masses, are incentives to impiety rather than the services of piety: let him be anathema. (Denziger 954.)

He who maintains that Paul VI and his successors were indeed true popes should not dare to criticize the Novus Ordo — for the Catholic Church through her head on earth does not institute ceremonies and outward signs for celebrating Mass which are “incentives to impiety.” Indeed, the Church solemnly anathematizes those who say otherwise.
This quote is out of context. This anathema merely condemns those who believe that the externals in the Mass; the exterior pomp, beauty, signs and pictures used in the Mass (like the chant, the Signs of the Cross, the majestic missals, and the beautiful priest's vestments) are incentives to impiety. This does not apply to the celebration as a whole nor to the form of the words used in the Missal, this is clearly shown by the words "in the celebration of the Mass"Ceremonies, vestments and outward signs are not the words of a particular Missal but rather the general Catholic ethoes.
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neel
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« Reply #57 on: August 23, 2008, 02:34:PM »

Milkman, under your definition of universal laws and infallibility, how is the TLM protected from error?  According to you, it can't be called infallible because it doesn't apply to the Eastern Rites.

Don't bash my "traditional credentials" when your position doesn't even allow you to hold that the TLM is infallible!
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Catholicmilkman
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« Reply #58 on: August 23, 2008, 02:36:PM »

Quote from: confiteor1
Cm,

Although the Council of Trent did not anticipate the NOM and its abuses, we must take the anathema seriously.

We can say that the NOM is deficient in its composition and thus an unworthy liturgical setting for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. However, we cannot say that the NOM is an "incentive to impiety" because it is in point of fact a composition of "ceremonies and outward signs" used by the Church to offer the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, and as such falls under the definition of Canon 7.

Thus, if we say that the NOM in the Typical Edition promulgated by Pope Paul VI is per se an "incentive to impiety", then we are heretics and rightfully anathematized.
No, read above. The anathema is general not specific like that. It does not say "a composition of" but the "ceremonies, vestments and exterior signs" in and by themselves.

[/QUOTE]
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neel
Guest
« Reply #59 on: August 23, 2008, 02:42:PM »

Quote from: Catholicmilkman
I don't see where the NO applies to the whole Catholic word. Please, explain to me how that is so when not even all Roman priests have to offer it? In theory all Roman priest could reject it so I don't see how it's particular but that for another discussion.


It doesn't HAVE to apply to the whole Catholic world.  You missed the entire point of the quote.

Quote from: Catholicmilkman
This is illogical. If the Eastern Catholic Churches are not bound by universal laws then how are they universal in the first since they don't apply "in the whole Catholic world"? This is a common illogic I've seen with many self-proclaimed theologians.


Because a univeral law is also a "particular which has force in a certain limited territory."  Which means the entire Latin Church.

You're the one with displaying "common illogic," so don't go bashing Fr. Cekada by calling him a "self-proclaimed theologian."  You may disagree with many of his conclusions, but he is one of the brightest traditional minds out there.  He is an encyclopedia of Catholic knowledge (and others as well).  The man is a genius.  I know this from personal interaction with him.

Quote
Who are these authors and what is their guarantee of infallibility? Mere theologians do not have guaranteed infallibility by the Church and Her Faith.


These are the guys with multiple PHDS in Church law, history, theology.  These are the theologians of the Church.  These are the guys who had all there works approved by bishops before Vatican II and are thus free from error.

Quote
This quote is out of context. This anathema merely condemns those who believe that the externals in the Mass; the exterior pomp, beauty, signs and pictures used in the Mass (like the chant, the Signs of the Cross, the majestic missals, and the beautiful priest's vestments) are incentives to impiety. This does not apply to the celebration as a whole nor to the form of the words used in the Missal, this is clearly shown by the words "in the celebration of the Mass". Ceremonies, vestments and outward signs are not the words of a particular Missal but rather the general Catholic ethoes.


Wrong.  It specifically says "ceremonies", which would mean the rubrics of the mass themselves.  
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