Can Anyone Show Me One Or More Parts of The Ordinary Of The Novus Ordo Missal That Is Contrary To Catholicism ?

[Whitey]

Quote from: Mithrandylan

The new mass effectively (both substantially and accidentally) suppresses the sacrifice in favor of a meal.  It also minimizes and suppresses the role of the priest to a mere representative of the people (as if the people are/can offer the sacrifice).  These suppressions are enough reason to believe and to clearly illustrate that the New Mass expresses a different faith, in keeping with the axiom lex orandi, lex cerendi.

Fair enough.

I'm still not convinced the NO isn't a Catholic Mass. Less fitting than the TLM ? I'd agree.

Well, define "Catholic" and then see if the NO meets that definition.

Well, the Creed defines it pretty well. How many non-Catholic liturgies mention the Virgin Mary ?

What has become of the NO is troubling. The women in the Sanctuary, CITH and all, but the liturgy itself is a Catholic one imo. Unless someone provides something convincing.

[Whitey]

I'm still not convinced the NO isn't a Catholic Mass. Less fitting than the TLM ? I'd agree.

This is my position too.  It is a Catholic Mass, but lacking the doctrinal clarity of the TLM.

Right, and no matter what it lacks, to speak of it as some do, is as Dr Bombay says. Blasphemous/Sacrilegious.

I'm all for condemning the liturgical abuses, but.......

[Mithrandylan]

Quote from: Mithrandylan

The new mass effectively (both substantially and accidentally) suppresses the sacrifice in favor of a meal.  It also minimizes and suppresses the role of the priest to a mere representative of the people (as if the people are/can offer the sacrifice).  These suppressions are enough reason to believe and to clearly illustrate that the New Mass expresses a different faith, in keeping with the axiom lex orandi, lex cerendi.

Fair enough.

I'm still not convinced the NO isn't a Catholic Mass. Less fitting than the TLM ? I'd agree.

Well, define "Catholic" and then see if the NO meets that definition.

Well, the Creed defines it pretty well. How many non-Catholic liturgies mention the Virgin Mary ?

What has become of the NO is troubling. The women in the Sanctuary, CITH and all, but the liturgy itself is a Catholic one imo. Unless someone provides something convincing.

"What has become of..."  

Not really.  What became of it is just like dropping a bomb on a trainwreck, even if you don't drop the bomb you've still got a trainwreck.  Do you not agree that a religion's liturgy reflects it's beliefs?  How then can you justify the novus ordo as a Catholic mass when it hs effectively removed all mention of sacrifice?  All mention of an altar (removal of aufer a nobis and Judica me.)  

[DJR]

"What has become of..."  

Not really.  What became of it is just like dropping a bomb on a trainwreck, even if you don't drop the bomb you've still got a trainwreck.  Do you not agree that a religion's liturgy reflects it's beliefs?  How then can you justify the novus ordo as a Catholic mass when it hs effectively removed all mention of sacrifice?  All mention of an altar (removal of aufer a nobis and Judica me.)  

I'm not defending the changes, but the new Mass doesn't effectively remove all mention of sacrifice.  It's still there, albeit quite minimally.

Again, just an observation, not a defense.  And as anyone can see, the English does not faithfully track the Latin.

As far as the word "altar," it is mentioned at least once in the old canon.  The priest's instructions on how to offer Mass mention the word "altar" several times.  Admittedly, that doesn't mean much for the laity.

When the changes occurred, it was constantly harped on that now we'll hear the prayers in the vernacular and be able to understand everything.  Well, if that were the big deal, why didn't they just leave the missal as it was in 1965, which in my parish went completely vernacular?  Causes one to be a little suspicious, doesn't it?

New Mass:

P:  Pray, brethren, that our sacrifice    P:  Oràte, fratres, ut meum ac vestrum
    may be acceptable to God,                 sacrificium acceptàbile fit apud
    the almighty Father.                      Deum Patrem omnipotèntem.
C:  May the Lord                          C:  Suscìpiat Dòminus sacrificium
    accept the sacrifice at your hands        de mànibus tuis
    for the praise and glory                  ad laudem et glòriam nòminis sui,
    of his name, for our good,                ad utilitàtem quoque nostram
    and the good of all his Church.           totiùs que Ecclèsiae suae sanctae.

New Mass, English Canon I, in part:

Almighty God, we pray that your angel may take this sacrifice to your altar in heaven. Then, as we receive from this altar the sacred body and blood of your Son, let us be filled with every grace and blessing. [Through Christ our Lord. Amen.]

[JMartyr]

Canon 1 is rarely used. The "canon", which means rule LOL, that is used the most, at least in my experiences says: from age to age you gather a people to Yourself, SO THAT from east to west, a perfect offering can be made for the glory of Your name. Do the people offer the sacrifice? Are the people the sacrifice? No more private Masses since the people are integral?

[Stubborn]

I'm still not convinced the NO isn't a Catholic Mass. Less fitting than the TLM ? I'd agree.

This is my position too.  It is a Catholic Mass, but lacking the doctrinal clarity of the TLM.

Right, and no matter what it lacks, to speak of it as some do, is as Dr Bombay says. Blasphemous/Sacrilegious.

I'm all for condemning the liturgical abuses, but.......

The NOM is Catholic compared to what? A genuine Prot Service, maybe -  but who can possibly compare it to that which it replaced and still insist that it is Catholic? It's not like one needs to be a Theological Scholar to see the vast difference.

As Mith said, the definition of Catholic these days has taken on a new meaning - along with "Extraordinary". Remember when something that was said to be extraordinary meant vastly superior? 

How many [here on FE over the years] have said they hated going to the New Mass, that they grit their teeth, closed their eyes and  went only under constraint as chills ran down their spine for what they were a part of?  Their own words betray them.  What they are doing is indicating that they knew that the New Mass was not the True Mass.  More to the point:  Did they imagine that those who were doing their busy little tasks, drums, EMs, etc. at the Masses they were attending were doing something wrong?  If they were doing something wrong, how could they have been offering a worthy Sacrifice, a Sacrifice which rendered acceptable worship to God?  Did they imagine that because they were there out of obedience that there was some virtue in that, as if doing something wrong out of obedience makes the wrongdoing right? - Fr. Wathen

[Whitey]

Canon 1 is rarely used. The "canon", which means rule LOL, that is used the most, at least in my experiences says: from age to age you gather a people to Yourself, SO THAT from east to west, a perfect offering can be made for the glory of Your name. Do the people offer the sacrifice? Are the people the sacrifice? No more private Masses since the people are integral?

   
Priest:  Pray, my brothers and sisters, that our sacrifice
    may be acceptable to God, the almighty Father.
   
All:  May the Lord accept the sacrifice at your hands,
    for the praise and glory of his name,
    for our good, and the good of all his Church.

[Mithrandylan]

Canon 1 is rarely used. The "canon", which means rule LOL, that is used the most, at least in my experiences says: from age to age you gather a people to Yourself, SO THAT from east to west, a perfect offering can be made for the glory of Your name. Do the people offer the sacrifice? Are the people the sacrifice? No more private Masses since the people are integral?

   
Priest:  Pray, my brothers and sisters, that our sacrifice
    may be acceptable to God, the almighty Father.
   
All:  May the Lord accept the sacrifice at your hands,
    for the praise and glory of his name,
    for our good, and the good of all his Church.

It's sad and laughable that the rebuttal to "The New Mass has effectively removed the sacrificial aspects of the mass" is met with "No, there's a part where we say that word!"

[Phillipus Iacobus]

Sifting for gold, like a 49er.

[INPEFESS]

It's sad and laughable that the rebuttal to "The New Mass has effectively removed the sacrificial aspects of the mass" is met with "No, there's a part where we say that word!"

Indeed. Catholics just don't understand the problem.