DrBombay
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« Reply #240 on: April 23, 2012, 09:18:PM » |
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Perhaps a more useful comparison to make would be to compare several of the different Catholic rites that have existed throughout the history of the Church. This would help one to understand that being different from the Tridentine Mass does not necessarily make a Mass non-Catholic.
That would serve no purpose since the differences between Rites is not the issue, the replacement of the Latin Rite with a Rite completely new, completely anti - or at least untraditional is. In case anyone is interested in logic, the above is an example of a circular argument. Circular. Like this.  Pazzo indeed. Ha. |
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There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know.
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INPEFESS
Please remember me in your rosary intentions.
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† "If anyone love Me, he will keep My word." †
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« Reply #241 on: April 23, 2012, 09:35:PM » |
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Yeah. Kinda unfortunate you brought this up. 85. Commemoration of the Living.
Remember, Lord, your servants N. and N.
The Priest joins his hands and prays briefly for those for whom he intends to pray.
Then, with hands extended, he continues:
and all gathered here,
whose faith and devotion are known to you.
For them, we offer you this sacrifice of praise
or they offer it for themselves
and all who are dear to them:
for the redemption of their souls,
in hope of health and well-being,
and paying their homage to you,
the eternal God, living and true. And how about this: May this Sacrifice of our reconciliation,
we pray, O Lord, advance the peace and salvation of all the world. And get a load of this from the consecration: TAKE THIS, ALL OF YOU, AND EAT OF IT,
FOR THIS IS MY BODY,
WHICH WILL BE GIVEN UP FOR YOU. Gasp!!!!  What's that I spy with my little eye? An additional phrase in the NO consecration not present in the TLM??? "WHICH WILL BE GIVEN UP FOR YOU" Golly, doesn't get much more propitiatory than that, no?  It gets much more propitiatory. Read my earlier post on the matter. I spy with my little eye post #163.  |
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I n N omine P atris, E t F ilii, E t S piritus S ancti "The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative magisterium" (Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum, no. 9, June 29, 1896). “Wherefore, brethren, labour the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election. For doing these things, you shall not sin at any time” (2 Peter 1:10).
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DrBombay
Quintessential Heckler
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« Reply #242 on: April 23, 2012, 09:50:PM » |
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Yeah. Kinda unfortunate you brought this up. 85. Commemoration of the Living.
Remember, Lord, your servants N. and N.
The Priest joins his hands and prays briefly for those for whom he intends to pray.
Then, with hands extended, he continues:
and all gathered here,
whose faith and devotion are known to you.
For them, we offer you this sacrifice of praise
or they offer it for themselves
and all who are dear to them:
for the redemption of their souls,
in hope of health and well-being,
and paying their homage to you,
the eternal God, living and true. And how about this: May this Sacrifice of our reconciliation,
we pray, O Lord, advance the peace and salvation of all the world. And get a load of this from the consecration: TAKE THIS, ALL OF YOU, AND EAT OF IT,
FOR THIS IS MY BODY,
WHICH WILL BE GIVEN UP FOR YOU. Gasp!!!! What's that I spy with my little eye? An additional phrase in the NO consecration not present in the TLM??? "WHICH WILL BE GIVEN UP FOR YOU" Golly, doesn't get much more propitiatory than that, no? It gets much more propitiatory. Read my earlier post on the matter. I spy with my little eye post #163. Post #163 does not in any way answer the rather obvious point I made about the consecration. I mean, it's so obvious even a loon sedevacantist should be able to recognize it. The NO is clearly propitiatory. Sorry.  |
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There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know.
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INPEFESS
Please remember me in your rosary intentions.
Member
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Personality type: Mostly melancholic
Posts: 10,836
† "If anyone love Me, he will keep My word." †
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« Reply #243 on: April 23, 2012, 09:55:PM » |
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Post #163 does not in any way answer the rather obvious point I made about the consecration. I mean, it's so obvious even a loon sedevacantist should be able to recognize it. The NO is clearly propitiatory. Sorry. It doesn't seem you read the post. Reply to Objection 3 answers your specific objection. |
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I n N omine P atris, E t F ilii, E t S piritus S ancti "The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative magisterium" (Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum, no. 9, June 29, 1896). “Wherefore, brethren, labour the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election. For doing these things, you shall not sin at any time” (2 Peter 1:10).
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Mithrandylan
Banned for promoting sedevacantism
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Divínum auxílium ✝ maneat semper nobíscum.
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« Reply #244 on: April 23, 2012, 10:04:PM » |
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Doc: Objection 3: The Novus Ordo Missae does pray to be a propitiation for sin. The very words of institution say: "[...] For this is the chalice of My Blood, the Blood of the new and eternal covenant, which will be poured out for you and many for the forgiveness of sins. Do this in memory of Me."
Reply: The Protestants acknowledge that the Sacrifice of Calvary was propitiatory, but they deny that the Sacrifice of the Mass is, itself, likewise propitiatory. They argue that it is merely a sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving which calls to mind the death of Christ, but which doesn’t have any propitiatory effect. The Council of Trent responded by declaring that the Mass, itself, is propitiatory and condemned the notion that the Mass, itself, is not propitiatory. The subsequent liturgical codifications (Missal of St. Pius V) reflected this teaching concerning the purpose of the prayer of the Mass by inserting this specific intention into the prayer of the Mass.
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DrBombay
Quintessential Heckler
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« Reply #245 on: April 23, 2012, 10:15:PM » |
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Doc: Objection 3: The Novus Ordo Missae does pray to be a propitiation for sin. The very words of institution say: "[...] For this is the chalice of My Blood, the Blood of the new and eternal covenant, which will be poured out for you and many for the forgiveness of sins. Do this in memory of Me."
Reply: The Protestants acknowledge that the Sacrifice of Calvary was propitiatory, but they deny that the Sacrifice of the Mass is, itself, likewise propitiatory. They argue that it is merely a sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving which calls to mind the death of Christ, but which doesn’t have any propitiatory effect. The Council of Trent responded by declaring that the Mass, itself, is propitiatory and condemned the notion that the Mass, itself, is not propitiatory. The subsequent liturgical codifications (Missal of St. Pius V) reflected this teaching concerning the purpose of the prayer of the Mass by inserting this specific intention into the prayer of the Mass.
Uh huh. Unfortunately, I was talking about the consecration of the Sacred Host, not the Precious Blood. Oh, and I also pointed out at least two instances in the NO where the Mass itself is referred to as propitiatory. As so... 85. Commemoration of the Living.
Remember, Lord, your servants N. and N.
The Priest joins his hands and prays briefly for those for whom he intends to pray.
Then, with hands extended, he continues:
and all gathered here,
whose faith and devotion are known to you.
For them, we offer you this sacrifice of praise
or they offer it for themselves
and all who are dear to them:
for the redemption of their souls,
in hope of health and well-being,
and paying their homage to you,
the eternal God, living and true. Et.... May this Sacrifice of our reconciliation,
we pray, O Lord, advance the peace and salvation of all the world. So....yeah... I'm sure I could find more if I put my diligent mind to it, but quite frankly I weary of spending so much time with the text of the NO. I mean, it is what it is. No need to invent booger men where none exist after all. And the sedevacantist crickets chirp their doleful hymn. Sad. :( |
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There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know.
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INPEFESS
Please remember me in your rosary intentions.
Member
Gender:
Personality type: Mostly melancholic
Posts: 10,836
† "If anyone love Me, he will keep My word." †
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« Reply #246 on: April 23, 2012, 11:20:PM » |
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Doc: Objection 3: The Novus Ordo Missae does pray to be a propitiation for sin. The very words of institution say: "[...] For this is the chalice of My Blood, the Blood of the new and eternal covenant, which will be poured out for you and many for the forgiveness of sins. Do this in memory of Me."
Reply: The Protestants acknowledge that the Sacrifice of Calvary was propitiatory, but they deny that the Sacrifice of the Mass is, itself, likewise propitiatory. They argue that it is merely a sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving which calls to mind the death of Christ, but which doesn’t have any propitiatory effect. The Council of Trent responded by declaring that the Mass, itself, is propitiatory and condemned the notion that the Mass, itself, is not propitiatory. The subsequent liturgical codifications (Missal of St. Pius V) reflected this teaching concerning the purpose of the prayer of the Mass by inserting this specific intention into the prayer of the Mass.
Uh huh. Unfortunately, I was talking about the consecration of the Sacred Host, not the Precious Blood. The same principle applies. There is a difference between the local, bloody sacrifice of the cross being propitiatory and the Mass itself being propitiatory. This was addressed in my post. Oh, and I also pointed out at least two instances in the NO where the Mass itself is referred to as propitiatory. As so... 85. Commemoration of the Living.
Remember, Lord, your servants N. and N.
The Priest joins his hands and prays briefly for those for whom he intends to pray.
Then, with hands extended, he continues:
and all gathered here,
whose faith and devotion are known to you.
For them, we offer you this sacrifice of praise
or they offer it for themselves
and all who are dear to them:
for the redemption of their souls,
in hope of health and well-being,
and paying their homage to you,
the eternal God, living and true. Et.... "Sacrifice of praise" is not a sacrifice offered for remission of sin. The remission of sin was what was accomplished on Calvary, but that remission needs to be applied to the sins, offenses, and negligences of all faithful Christians living and dead by the propitiatory sacrifice of the Mass, not by a sacrifice of praise that merely recalls the redemptive sacrifice on Mt. Calvary; at least the Council of Trent thought so. I cited the relevant text from the Council of Trent in my post. May this Sacrifice of our reconciliation,
we pray, O Lord, advance the peace and salvation of all the world. “Sacrifice of reconciliation” is not a statement of the sacrifice of the Mass as being atonement for sin, regardless of how desirable it may be to think it so. The same could be said of a sacrifice of “praise and thanksgiving,” since such a sacrifice likewise advances the peace and salvation of the whole world by recalling His passion and death. See footnote 5b to see what is meant by a clear statement of the propitiatory nature of the sacrifice. The Holy Ghost gave us several examples in the Missal of St. Pius V of what He meant. Are we now to think that He has changed His mind? So....yeah...
I'm sure I could find more if I put my diligent mind to it Well, it's worth a try, but I'm not sure you are going to find what no-one has been able to find for 50 years. After all, it isn't as though it was removed by accident. |
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« Last Edit: April 24, 2012, 03:33:AM by INPEFESS »
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I n N omine P atris, E t F ilii, E t S piritus S ancti "The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative magisterium" (Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum, no. 9, June 29, 1896). “Wherefore, brethren, labour the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election. For doing these things, you shall not sin at any time” (2 Peter 1:10).
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DrBombay
Quintessential Heckler
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« Reply #247 on: April 24, 2012, 05:06:AM » |
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The same principle applies. There is a difference between the local, bloody sacrifice of the cross being propitiatory and the Mass itself being propitiatory. This was addressed in my post.
Your theology is flawed. The sacrifice of Calvary IS the sacrifice of the Mass. You can dance around this all you want but you're just playing semantic games. "Sacrifice of praise" is not a sacrifice offered for remission of sin. The remission of sin was what was accomplished on Calvary, but that remission needs to be applied to the sins, offenses, and negligences of all faithful Christians living and dead by the propitiatory sacrifice of the Mass, not by a sacrifice of praise that merely recalls the redemptive sacrifice on Mt. Calvary; at least the Council of Trent thought so. I cited the relevant text from the Council of Trent in my post.
Well son, then your argument is with the Council of Trent, not me since the quoted text is from the Roman Canon. You know, the one from the traditional Mass. “Sacrifice of reconciliation” is not a statement of the sacrifice of the Mass as being atonement for sin, regardless of how desirable it may be to think it so. The same could be said of a sacrifice of “praise and thanksgiving,” since such a sacrifice likewise advances the peace and salvation of the whole world by recalling His passion and death. See footnote 5b to see what is meant by a clear statement of the propitiatory nature of the sacrifice. The Holy Ghost gave us several examples in the Missal of St. Pius V of what He meant. Are we now to think that He has changed His mind? Again, you're playing semantic games. It may be desirable for you to think that a "sacrifice of reconciliation" is not propitiatory, but you're wrong. You see, "sacrifice of reconciliation" implies that said sacrifice reconciles us to God since it atones for our sin. Q.E.D.
Well, it's worth a try, but I'm not sure you are going to find what no-one has been able to find for 50 years. After all, it isn't as though it was removed by accident.
It's prolly not really worth a try since I've already pointed out two obvious examples and you dismiss them and as I say, I weary of getting bogged down in NO minutiae. I think we can both agree that someday the NO will be abolished, or abrogated/obrogated/derogated/suppressed, whatever. Perhaps my time would be better spent praying that God will hasten that inevitability rather than arguing with other Catholics. I suspect we agree on a lot more than we disagree. God bless. |
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There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know.
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ResiduumRevertetur
Gold Fish
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Location: Southern Maryland
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« Reply #248 on: April 24, 2012, 05:36:AM » |
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Doesn't the Book of Common Prayer use the same language in relation to sacrifice? Such as:
And although we are unworthy, through our manifold sins,
to offer unto thee any sacrifice, yet we beseech thee to accept
this our bounden duty and service, not weighing our merits,
but pardoning our offenses, through Jesus Christ our Lord;
I realize I don't know enough to have a firm opinion on this and it's a little over my paygrade, I'm just trying to understand what's what...
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The name's Braintrust. Mr. Braintrust.
The Almighty says this must be a fashionable fight. It's drawn the finest people. --Stephen, Braveheart
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Deus, tu conversus vivificabis nos, et plebs tua laetabitur in te.
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Stubborn
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« Reply #249 on: April 24, 2012, 06:38:AM » |
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Let's try this. Answer the question in the thread title.
"Can Anyone Show Me One Or More Parts of The Ordinary Of The Novus Ordo Missal That Is Contrary To Catholicism ?"
Assuming you are seeking something complex and that only theological masters would be privy too, I don't think you believe that the modernists are complete rookies. But may as well begin with the most obvious hey? Let's start with the Catholic Mass ALWAYS had the priest praying facing Our Lord - THAT is Catholic. As a rule, Protestants ALWAYS had their preacher facing the congregation. That is protestant. So there. While I'm pretty sure that's not an answer you wanted, it certainly answers you question - can it get any simpler? The errors of the NOM lies more in what has been omitted and adulterated. How about talking about the NO's "Prayers at the foot of the Altar" . . . . . . . wait, those are gone - no need to have prayers at the foot of the altar when there's no altar. Why no altar? because an altar is for sacrifice........... "Prayers at the foot of the Altar" are not a part of the Mass. But you knew that of course. They have always been part of the Holy Sacrifice, but where removed completely in the new mass along with the altar. Woulda been kinda silly to have kept those prayers without an altar don't you think. And just which direction did the pope face prior to the Council when he said Mass on the High Altar in St. Peter's....hmmmmmm?? No, it's not a trick question. But it is a question.
Who cares which way the pope faced? The fact remains the NO priest faces the people, which is new, not traditional, not Catholic and has always been the way prots worship. I didn't expect the NOers among us would care much for the answer I gave. But no sense tripping over the obvious any longer hey? |
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« Last Edit: April 24, 2012, 06:44:AM by Stubborn »
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It is the Mass that matters.
But because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold, not hot, I will begin to vomit thee out of my mouth. -Apocalypse 3:16
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