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Author Topic: Why I left the SSPX  (Read 19108 times)
pascendi
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« Reply #190 on: September 22, 2008, 12:34:AM »

Quote from: StevusMagnus
I started to realize that my SSPX confessions were much more efficacious and lead to spiritual improvement, whereas my NO confessions were leading to repeated failure.

Would this not be proximate to questioning the canons of the Council of Trent?  This is why I brought the matter of Trent up earlier.  Take a look at these canons, following one after another, from the seventh session of the Council of Trent concerning the sacraments:

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CANON V.-If any one saith, that these sacraments were instituted for the sake of nourishing faith alone; let him be anathema.

CANON VI.-If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law do not contain the grace which they signify; or, that they do not confer that grace on those who do not place an obstacle thereunto; as though they were merely outward signs of grace or justice received through faith, and certain marks of the Christian profession, whereby believers are distinguished amongst men from unbelievers; let him be anathema.

CANON VII.-If any one saith, that grace, as far as God's part is concerned, is not given through the said sacraments, always, and to all men, even though they receive them rightly, but (only) sometimes, and to some persons; let him be anathema.

CANON VIII.-If any one saith, that by the said sacraments of the New Law grace is not conferred through the act performed, but that faith alone in the divine promise suffices for the obtaining of grace; let him be anathema.



Now I do not mean to state that you are in violation, but it can come close if one isn't careful.  It must be understood, it must be, that the sacrament confers the grace and has its effect no matter how you feel about it, no matter how good or bad the priest is.  I understand that some priests give better counsel than others.

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I noted this on the message board and was wrestling with the meaning of this. I did not want to make a decision on the validity of SSPX confession based on feeling.

MM then pointed out that it is not about feelings, it is about discernment of spirits which is different. We need to test things for their spiritual effectiveness, results in our lives, etc.

This was very valuable to me.


I don't know if you are referring to the same person, but someone called Ruination ipa wrote something very wise in response which is worth repeating:

"I haven't read the SSPX article you linked to yet but I thought I would point out a few things you bring up in the latter part of your post. I noticed you seem to base the efficacy of the sacrament of penance upon the disposition of the Priest and his ability to 'connect' with you (so to speak) when in reality it's just the opposite and has everything to do with YOUR disposition in confessing properly and having a firm purpose of ammendment. Whether a Priest your confessing to is liberal, conservative, or traditional has no bearing on the sacrament; it only will determine what kind of penance or advice you may get - which is important, but it's not the most important aspect of confessing which is confessing your sins to Christ through the Priest."


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Then I really studied the Fr. Angles article which drove home the legal construct of common error of law. Then I saw all of the Pre-VCII commentary and even Post-VCII commentary that stood for the very proposition the Society claimed. I then realized the Society was not making this stuff up or looking for loopholes. It was the Canon Law position all along.


But it should be quite obvious that the final result of your studies is that it doesn't practically matter if a priest has ordinary jurisdiction or not.  But it DOES matter.  Perhaps more investigation is required, if the theory does not fit the facts.

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Furthermore Rome has issued no official statement or ruling definitively clarifying this matter.


But it does sanitize these situations, doesn't it?  It moves to correct mistakes that have been made in the provision of the sacraments.  When some sort of reconciliation happens, it moves to validate.  This should also serve as a red flag to your position.

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 As it is a very confusing matter with millions of souls at stake they would have a duty to officially clarify the status of these confessions if they were not valid. Instead they know the situation exists and are silent.


Millions of souls have always been at stake, and prayer and sacrifices are the only weapons we really have to contribute to a genuine solution.  Most of everything else, like the apparent need to even have this conversation, is a wasted effort.  People need to obtain the sacraments.  They don't have to have them specially packaged according to their own desires.  It's a bit late in the game for that now, I'd say.


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pascendi
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« Reply #191 on: September 22, 2008, 12:36:AM »

Quote from: Caminus

Is he "McMaster" in disguise?


Way off.  If he's the same one I'm thinking of, I would be having it out with him on baptism of desire.  A conversation which would have borne a strikingly similarity to the method and flow of this conversation.
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MeaMaximaCulpa
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« Reply #192 on: September 22, 2008, 12:39:AM »

Quote from: pascendi

The only source of significance I have provided was all that is truly necessary, which is the clear position of the Church that ordinary jurisdiction is necessary for the administration of licit and sometimes valid sacraments, and the fact that the Church supplies jurisdiction in certain cases.  This is sufficient.  With volumes of theological manuals, the sedevacantist wish to pry you away from the belief that Benedict XVI is the Vicar of Christ.  Do you need to read their volumes before you can adequately defend him?  I can manage this discussion more effectively with a rock and a sling and without the armor.


Forgive me, pascendi, but that's complete and utter BS.  Theological manuals will draw you away from the Vicar of Christ?  I suppose if this were true, the Fr. Denzinger would be some agent of the enemy.  Worse, think of all those people who've been influenced by this "sede propaganda"...virtually every priest ordained in the past 150 years!!!  Benedict XVI is knowledgeable in the theological manuals...perhaps he's a sede...

Catholics have a duty to be knowledgeable about the Faith.  There are canonists who would tell you exactly what MM is saying about supplied jurisdiction, and they're not rogue agents of the SSPX.
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pascendi
Guest
« Reply #193 on: September 22, 2008, 12:39:AM »

Quote from: StevusMagnus
I think it is hopeless. Pascendi is not even engaging the arguments, he's simply evading and repeating. He's effectively sticking his fingers in his ears and yelling "I can't hear you"!

As Our Lord said "Those who have eyes to see, let them see."

Nah.  It's just that some of you desperately want to believe you are free to receive the sacraments in the particular places you want to receive them without having to fret over the matter.


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StevusMagnus
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« Reply #194 on: September 22, 2008, 12:45:AM »

Quote from: Caminus

Is he "McMaster" in disguise?


No. McMaster was at least coherent and attempted to engage your arguments intellectually.

Pascendi sometimes doesn't even post anything relevant to what you argued, constantly re-states his opinion as fact, and then lectures you.

At this point McMaster would be a breath of fresh air!
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pascendi
Guest
« Reply #195 on: September 22, 2008, 12:46:AM »

Quote from: MeaMaximaCulpa
Quote from: pascendi

The only source of significance I have provided was all that is truly necessary, which is the clear position of the Church that ordinary jurisdiction is necessary for the administration of licit and sometimes valid sacraments, and the fact that the Church supplies jurisdiction in certain cases. This is sufficient. With volumes of theological manuals, the sedevacantist wish to pry you away from the belief that Benedict XVI is the Vicar of Christ. Do you need to read their volumes before you can adequately defend him? I can manage this discussion more effectively with a rock and a sling and without the armor.



Forgive me, pascendi, but that's complete and utter BS.  Theological manuals will draw you away from the Vicar of Christ?

Yes, that would be complete and utter BS.  Fortunately, that's not what I meant.  I said that I've debated with sedevacantists who pour over theological manuals in order to find ways to separate you from the Vicar of Christ.  They do.  Pardon the lack of clarity, but it seems to me that the context should have solved any ambiguity.

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I suppose if this were true, the Fr. Denzinger would be some agent of the enemy. 


Of course not.  However, Karl Rahner was the editor at one time. 

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Catholics have a duty to be knowledgeable about the Faith.  There are canonists who would tell you exactly what MM is saying about supplied jurisdiction, and they're not rogue agents of the SSPX.


And there are canonists who would tell you the opposite.


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MeaMaximaCulpa
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« Reply #196 on: September 22, 2008, 12:48:AM »

Pascendi,

Are you familiar with the priests of Campos?  They trace their lineage to Bishop Castro Mayer who was excommunicated along with Archbishop Lefebvre.  When the reconciled with Rome in 2000, Rome didn't order their faithful to re-confess past their sins.

Why would Rome do this?  They were in the same situation as SSPX...
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pascendi
Guest
« Reply #197 on: September 22, 2008, 12:49:AM »

Quote from: StevusMagnus
No. McMaster was at least coherent and attempted to engage your arguments intellectually.

I may be just that I have not engaged you in a manner which you expected or are familiar with.  I'm generally happy with the conversation.
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StevusMagnus
Guest
« Reply #198 on: September 22, 2008, 12:50:AM »

Quote from: pascendi
Quote
Catholics have a duty to be knowledgeable about the Faith.  There are canonists who would tell you exactly what MM is saying about supplied jurisdiction, and they're not rogue agents of the SSPX.

And there are canonists who would tell you the opposite.

Prove it. Cite some.

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StevusMagnus
Guest
« Reply #199 on: September 22, 2008, 12:54:AM »

Quote from: MeaMaximaCulpa
Pascendi,

Are you familiar with the priests of Campos?  They trace their lineage to Bishop Castro Mayer who was excommunicated along with Archbishop Lefebvre.  When the reconciled with Rome in 2000, Rome didn't order their faithful to re-confess past their sins.

Why would Rome do this?  They were in the same situation as SSPX...

I asked him this. He has no response.
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