Polyphony or Chant?

[Baskerville]

So which do you think is better in your opinion? I have seldom heard Polyphony I am pretty much familiar with Chant but I checked out some Polyphony and it blew me away in a way that chant doesn't. Don't get me wrong I love chant too but polyphony is...well...I don't know what but it just lifts me up more spiritually in an inexplicable way. All I have heard so far is Byrd and a few Palestrina pieces so as you can see I am quite the Polyphony novice.

Edit: Maybe prefer is a better word than "better"

[Archbishop_10K]

I like both equally, I think. I think they should both be used in churches. I sing in a schola for Gregorian, but I'd like the group to learn other chant styles too, like Old Roman. Maybe I'm just getting bored of Gregorian. I don't know.

Actually, I wish more Masses were symphonic, like Mozart's Requiem.

[StevusMagnus]

St. Pius X

http://www.unavoce.org/intersollicitudines.htm

THE DIFFERENT KINDS OF SACRED MUSIC  

3. These qualities are to be found, in the highest degree, in Gregorian Chant, which is, consequently the Chant proper to the Roman Church, the only chant she has inherited from the ancient fathers, which she has jealously guarded for centuries in her liturgical codices, which she directly proposes to the faithful as her own, which she prescribes exclusively for some parts of the liturgy, and which the most recent studies have so happily restored to their integrity and purity.

 

On these grounds Gregorian Chant has always been regarded as the supreme model for sacred music, so that it is fully legitimate to lay down the following rule: the more closely a composition for church approaches in its movement, inspiration and savor the Gregorian form, the more sacred and liturgical it becomes; and the more out of harmony it is with that supreme model, the less worthy it is of the temple.

 

The ancient traditional Gregorian Chant must, therefore, in a large measure be restored to the functions of public worship, and the fact must be accepted by all that an ecclesiastical function loses none of its solemnity when accompanied by this music alone.

 

Special efforts are to be made to restore the use of the Gregorian Chant by the people, so that the faithful may again take a more active part in the ecclesiastical offices, as was the case in ancient times.

 

4. The above-mentioned qualities are also possessed in an excellent degree by Classic Polyphony, especially of the Roman School, which reached its greatest perfection in the fifteenth century, owing to the works of Pierluigi da Palestrina, and continued subsequently to produce compositions of excellent quality from a liturgical and musical standpoint. Classic Polyphony agrees admirably with Gregorian Chant, the supreme model of all sacred music, and hence it has been found worthy of a place side by side with Gregorian Chant, in the more solemn functions of the Church, such as those of the Pontifical Chapel. This, too, must therefore be restored largely in ecclesiastical functions, especially in the more important basilicas, in cathedrals, and in the churches and chapels of seminaries and other ecclesiastical institutions in which the necessary means are usually not lacking.

[Catholicmilkman]

St. Pius X http://www.unavoce.org/intersollicitudines.htm :

.....Special efforts are to be made to restore the use of the Gregorian Chant by the people, so that the faithful may again take a more active part in the ecclesiastical offices, as was the case in ancient times.

4. The above-mentioned qualities are also possessed in an excellent degree by Classic Polyphony, especially of the Roman School, which reached its greatest perfection in the fifteenth century, owing to the works of Pierluigi da Palestrina, and continued subsequently to produce compositions of excellent quality from a liturgical and musical standpoint. Classic Polyphony agrees admirably with Gregorian Chant, the supreme model of all sacred music, and hence it has been found worthy of a place side by side with Gregorian Chant, in the more solemn functions of the Church, such as those of the Pontifical Chapel. This, too, must therefore be restored largely in ecclesiastical functions, especially in the more important basilicas, in cathedrals, and in the churches and chapels of seminaries and other ecclesiastical institutions in which the necessary means are usually not lacking.

Don't you just love St. Pius X and his wisdom from our God, the Holy Ghost.

[Catholic777]

Chant is the only form that has official settings (namely, the Graduale Romanum).

Furthermore, chant has the important characteristic of being monophonic which brings forth the symbolism of the people singing una voce, with one voice.

Polyphony, on the otherhand, has multiple parts and while it may be "more interesting" or even prettier, I'll admit...but that's not the point of sacred music which is to serve very specific liturgical ends. I'm lifted up spiritually most by the great negro spirituals, Gospel, and American folk hymns. That doesnt mean I think Mass is the place for them. Go to a choral concert if you want that other sort of stimulation.

Chant, for example, very clearly sings the liturgical text in a straightforward way with no repitition. With polyphony's multiple layers, however, the actual text can be hard to hear or discern the meaning of as they all sing over each other. In chant, the music serves the text...in polyphony (and all later decadent forms), it seems the text is made simply a vehicle for the music and showing off the talents of the composer.

I'd be careful of saying polyphony lifts you up more spiritually, as chant by definition is designed to be the most spiritually beneficial. Spirituality is not emotions, in fact it is quite the opposite. Polyphony gives me a good peaceful/transcendent feeling, a "beauty ecstasy" or "church high" too...but that's not what spirituality is about, in fact that's base sentimentalism.

Actually, I wish more Masses were symphonic, like Mozart's Requiem.

Absolutely impractical.

"Dressed up" Masses strike me as sort of like what the psalms and Jesus talk about when critiquing Jewish Temple sacrifice. God doesnt want our bulls and cows. And he doesnt care for all our gold and violins and dress-suits. He wants our souls. Giving him "our best" has NOTHING to do with expensive or complicated externals. Worship that should be done in an ascetic way, in monastic fashion, not in one that immerses us in sensory enjoyment. All this striving to impress God (and too often other people) with these efforts at greatness, of ostentatious churches and art and music...is still so much dust. Great human talent has its place, but it is no more objectively "better" in worship than anything else, no less vain in God's sight. He's not impressed, and neither am I.

[StrictCatholicGirl]

Could someone please place an example of polyphony in this thread so I can hear it?

- Lisa

[Catholic777]

Palestrina is possibly the most understandable of the polyphonists, and even with him...you cant really make out most of the words and there's lots of (technically unallowed) repetition of parts of the text.

Palestrina Polyphony: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhpQgOpFEsY

If they wanted a more layered sound or harmonization in the music, then they should just use fauxbourdon with the chant settings. But the repetition and multiple parts of polyphony...obscures the text itself (which is really the most important thing) and therefore undermines the liturgy.

Fauxbourdon chant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vzq6_IkqWrI

[Archbishop_10K]

I think you took my comment about symphonic music a little too seriously, 777.

I love fauxbourdon. I can't get my schola to take an interest in learning it if my life depended on it, though. I contacted the Sainte-Cecile (sp?) schola that's featured in that video at Oxford for some sheet music. It's a great way to embellish the eight psalm tones.

[Catholic777]

 

I can't get my schola to take an interest in learning it if my life depended on it, though.

Then they dont have good taste, lol, and you should tell them as much.

I think what you hear in that video is THE ideal that Latin Rite churches should strive for. Chant settings, done fauxbourdon for beauty's sake, and the pipe organ used not as an end in itself, but rather to serve the chant.

I contacted the Sainte-Cecile (sp?) schola that's featured in that video at Oxford for some sheet music.

Yeah, they're great (even though French ). I met them in Oxford. Lots of people find it hard to believe that it's only four of them singing.

[Dauphin]

Could someone please place an example of polyphony in this thread so I can hear it?

- Lisa

These are two of my favourites. The first is from Palestrina:
 
Missa Papae Marcelli - Sanctus
 
The second piece from this video is Dum Transisset Sabbattum, by John Taverner, which I find extremely moving and very evocative of the resurrection (sorry for the annoying commentators):
 
Papal Vespers