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Author Topic: Old Covenant Revoked?  (Read 1524 times)
Catholic777
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« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2008, 08:07:PM »

Yup.

I also think many Christians reverse the priority of the elections. That is to say...in reality, the election of Christ is primal, and the election of the Jews resulted from that, not the other way around.

God did not just arbitrarily pick the Jews, nor even because of any human merit on the part of Old Testament saints, and then for that reason incarnate as a Jew. Rather, God's incarnation as a Jew was determined, and then the Jews were groomed to prepare for that.

It is not that Jesus is a Jew because the Jews were chosen. Rather, God chose the Jews exactly because Jesus was going to be one. And specifically because Mary was one.

Looking forward through all possible histories, God saw one woman who would not resist His grace...and she happened to be a Jewess according to the flesh. And so, wanting to be Incarnate of her, He had to groom her people for His coming.

The Jews were chosen because of Jesus and Mary, not the other way around.
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Catholicmilkman
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« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2008, 08:47:PM »

Just think about it: God is a Jew and so is His Mother.
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winoblue1
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« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2008, 07:00:AM »

Quote:

Looking forward through all possible histories, God saw one woman who would not resist His grace...and she happened to be a Jewess according to the flesh. And so, wanting to be Incarnate of her, He had to groom her people for His coming.

The Jews were chosen because of Jesus and Mary, not the other way around.

_____
 
I like the way this is put, because it shows the continuation with the people of the new testament, ie Christians, as Mary of course was to be.
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Traditional Catholic seeking holiness.... seeking
JoeVoxxPop
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« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2008, 11:01:AM »

These guys arent gonna like this news...








Oh and this one hopes no one hears the news.....

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gjwalberg
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« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2008, 05:36:PM »

Quote from: AnimaChristi
Can someone direct me to official Church pronouncements/documents/Early Church Fathers, etc. showing that it has always been the Church's teaching that the Old Covenant is revoked or replaced and that the Church is the Israel of God?  I'm arguing with a heretical NeoCatholic on CAF who thinks it is still valid and the state of Israel is a fulfillment of prophecy.

Mt. 5:17

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jovan66102
La foi Catholique d'abord! La mort à l'Islam!
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« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2008, 05:41:PM »

Quote from: gjwalberg

Quote from: AnimaChristi
Can someone direct me to official Church pronouncements/documents/Early Church Fathers, etc. showing that it has always been the Church's teaching that the Old Covenant is revoked or replaced and that the Church is the Israel of God?  I'm arguing with a heretical NeoCatholic on CAF who thinks it is still valid and the state of Israel is a fulfillment of prophecy.

Mt. 5:17

 
Quote from: the Gospel according to St Matthew, Chapter 5, D-R
17 Do not think that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
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kzarah
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« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2008, 09:04:PM »

[Here's the revocation ordained by God as spoken through the Prophet Jeremias:

Jeremias 31:
31 Behold the days shall come, saith the Lord, and I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Juda:
32
Not according to the covenant which I made with their fathers, in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt: the covenant which they made void, and I had dominion over them, saith the Lord.
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel, after those days, saith the Lord: I will give my law in their bowels, and I will write it in their heart: and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

The "house of Israel" here refers to the people of the New Covenant, the Christians, the new Law which Jesus fulfilled according to God's will.



This is just what I have been looking for.  This really helps with my argument with dispensationalist. 

Daniel 

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To Modern Catholics:
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We believe what you once believed.
We worship as you once worshipped.
If we are wrong now, you were wrong then.
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Catholicmilkman
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« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2008, 01:21:AM »

Law is often confused with covenant, especially as they're one word in Hebrew. There has always been only one covenant that God made with His creatures which is to sent His Son as Redeemer to save us, along with one natural moral law. The liturgical and ceremonial laws on the other hand were always meant to be created and given to His people by God and then fulfilled by Him made flesh. So there is a new covenant (law) in the sense that there is a whole new Supernatural Law and Order founded by our Lord and God Jesus Christ. Show them our Lord's own words: "For This is My Blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for many unto remission of sins" (Matthew 26:28) And show them the reference which these words are to: Exodus 24:8 and Hebrews 9.
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HMiS
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« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2008, 04:33:AM »

29. And first of all, by the death of our Redeemer, the New Testament took the place of the Old Law which had been abolished; then the Law of Christ together with its mysteries, enactments, institutions, and sacred rites was ratified for the whole world in the blood of Jesus Christ. For, while our Divine Savior was preaching in a restricted area - He was not sent but to the sheep that were lost of the House of Israel [30] - the Law and the Gospel were together in force; [31] but on the gibbet of His death Jesus made void the Law with its decrees [32] fastened the handwriting of the Old Testament to the Cross, [33] establishing the New Testament in His blood shed for the whole human race.[34] "To such an extent, then," says St. Leo the Great, speaking of the Cross of our Lord, "was there effected a transfer from the Law to the Gospel, from the Synagogue to the Church, from the many sacrifices to one Victim, that, as Our Lord expired, that mystical veil which shut off the innermost part of the temple and its sacred secret was rent violently from top to bottom." [35]

30. On the Cross then the Old Law died, soon to be buried and to be a bearer of death, [36] in order to give way to the New Testament of which Christ had chosen the Apostles as qualified ministers; [37] and although He had been constituted the Head of the whole human family in the womb of the Blessed Virgin, it is by the power of the Cross that our Savior exercises fully the office itself of Head of His Church. "For it was through His triumph on the Cross," according to the teaching of the Angelic and Common Doctor, "that He won power and dominion over the gentiles";[38] by that same victory He increased the immense treasure of graces, which, as He reigns in glory in heaven, He lavishes continually on His mortal members; it was by His blood shed on the Cross that God's anger was averted and that all the heavenly gifts, especially the spiritual graces of the New and Eternal Testament, could then flow from the fountains of our Savior for the salvation of men, of the faithful above all; it was on the tree of the Cross, finally, that He entered into possession of His Church, that is, of all the members of His Mystical Body; for they would not have been untied to this Mystical Body through the waters of Baptism except by the salutary virtue of the Cross, by which they had been already brought under the complete sway of Christ.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_29061943_mystici-corporis-christi_en.html

The Old Covenant in the strict sense of the promise made to Abraham and Moses of course was not really abolished, rather it was fulfilled by the Messiah and the New Covenant and its supreme Divine Sacrifice.

The New Covenant superseded the Old Covenant, the observation of which laws, have no salutary value anymore - and by those knowing Christ, are mortal sin probably even.
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„Ja, Ja, wie Gott es will. Gott lohne es Euch. Gott schütze das liebe Vaterland. Für Ihn weiterarbeiten... oh, Du lieber Heiland!” ("Yes, Yes, as God wills it. May God repay it to you. May God protect the dear fatherland. Go on working for him... oh, you dear Savior!") - Clemens August Cardinal von Galen, his last words.
Catholicmilkman
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« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2008, 04:41:AM »

Quote from: HMiS
The New Covenant superseded the Old Covenant, the observation of which laws, have no salutary value anymore - and by those knowing Christ, are mortal sin probably even.
They never had any salutary value anyway according to the Apostle. Faith and Hope in and love for Christ by His Grace alone saves in His Church.
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