AnimaChristi
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« on: September 20, 2008, 11:19:AM » |
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Can someone direct me to official Church pronouncements/documents/Early Church Fathers, etc. showing that it has always been the Church's teaching that the Old Covenant is revoked or replaced and that the Church is the Israel of God? I'm arguing with a heretical NeoCatholic on CAF who thinks it is still valid and the state of Israel is a fulfillment of prophecy.
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PRAISED BE JESUS CHRIST, NOW AND FOREVER!
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kjvail
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« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2008, 11:27:AM » |
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Can someone direct me to official Church pronouncements/documents/Early Church Fathers, etc. showing that it has always been the Church's teaching that the Old Covenant is revoked or replaced and that the Church is the Israel of God? I'm arguing with a heretical NeoCatholic on CAF who thinks it is still valid and the state of Israel is a fulfillment of prophecy.
Not 'revoked', completed. We are Israel (the Church). Modern Judaism has virtually nothing in common with biblical Judaism. |
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Pax Tecum,
Kevin V.
"I am a converted pagan living among apostate puritans"
- C.S. Lewis
"In the world it is called Tolerance, but in hell it is called Despair, the sin that believes in nothing, cares for nothing, seeks to know nothing, interferes with nothing, enjoys nothing, hates nothing,
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Credo
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« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2008, 11:54:AM » |
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Can someone direct me to official Church pronouncements/documents/Early Church Fathers, etc. Consummatum est [It is finished (S. Jo. 19:30)]. |
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I promise not to put anything here which might help us question our mind-forged manacles, inspire us, or help us in any way at all.
N.B.: I will not be posting on this site again until the Christmas octave. Have a good Advent.
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Robb
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« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2008, 01:14:PM » |
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Every Church document, catechism, and sermon dealing with the Jews BEFORE Vatican II unequivocally stated that God special covenant with them had been revoked. The old law has been superseded with the new. The Church is the New Israel and the old people have been cast aside for refusing to accept the Gospel.
These age old teaching only began to be called into question by Vatican II and its liberal bent. However even that Councils overtures towards the Jews could not compare with what was to come later through the Pontificate of JP II and now B XVI. We now have the almost complete capitulation of Catholic doctrine before the Juggernaut of political correctness and a desire to be "in touch" with modern relativism.
Bob
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fridayer
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« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2008, 04:45:PM » |
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Revoked? No. Obsolete, yes.
The Old Covenant is the New Covenant...In other words, the latter is the outgrowth of the former.
At least that's how I've always understood it. :(
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Vincentius
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« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2008, 05:35:PM » |
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Here's the revocation ordained by God as spoken through the Prophet Jeremias:
Jeremias 31:
31 Behold the days shall come, saith the Lord, and I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Juda:
32 Not according to the covenant which I made with their fathers, in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt: the covenant which they made void, and I had dominion over them, saith the Lord.
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel, after those days, saith the Lord: I will give my law in their bowels, and I will write it in their heart: and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
The "house of Israel" here refers to the people of the New Covenant, the Christians, the new Law which Jesus fulfilled according to God's will.
St. Paul reminds again of this in his Epistle to the Hebrews:
Chapter 8:
8 For finding fault with them, he saith: Behold, the days shall come, saith the Lord: and I will perfect unto the house of Israel, and unto the house of Juda, a new testament:
9 Not according to the testament which I made to their fathers, on the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt: because they continued not in my testament: and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the testament which I will make to the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord: I will give my laws into their mind, and in their heart will I write them: and I will be their God, and they shall be my people:
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http://www.alcazar.netAnything we do without offering it to God, is wasted.” -- St. John Vianney, The Curé of Ars When next you hear some attack called an idle paradox, Ask after the dox. Pursue the dox; persecute the dox. In short ask the dox whether it is orthodox. ---G.K. Chesterton, Daily News, October 28, 1911 God Himself does not propose to judge a man until he is dead. So why should you? In thee, O Lord, have I hoped, let me never be confounded: deliver me in thy justice. The world was to be saved by the preaching of the Cross and on the Eucharist, and not by human wisdom or eloquence
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Catholic777
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« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2008, 05:36:PM » |
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Yeah. "Fulfilled" is perhaps a better term than "revoked". The Old Covenant is obsolete because what it promised, Jesus Christ, already came. The Covenant was fulfilled, God delivered His end of the promise by sending His Son.
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NorthernTrad
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« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2008, 06:03:PM » |
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The covenant was fulfilled. The racial election of the Jews was revoked. |
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"I'm back sinners."
“Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ.” - St. Athanasius, AD 373
"It is granted to few to recognize the true Church amid the darkness of so many schisms and heresies, and to fewer still so to love the truth which they have seen as to fly to its embrace." -St. Robert Bellarmine
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Catholic777
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« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2008, 06:06:PM » |
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There never really was a "racial election" of the Jews as the Zionists imagine it today.
But inasmuch as there was, it wasnt revoked: Jesus is still, and always will be, a Jew according to the flesh.
That's all their election ever meant, and it is still true. But with Christ the message and salvation was always to extend to the whole world and to the Gentiles. And begrudging this, most refused to follow Him.
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NorthernTrad
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« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2008, 07:42:PM » |
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There never really was a "racial election" of the Jews as the Zionists imagine it today.
But inasmuch as there was, it wasnt revoked: Jesus is still, and always will be, a Jew according to the flesh.
That's all their election ever meant, and it is still true. But with Christ the message and salvation was always to extend to the whole world and to the Gentiles. And begrudging this, most refused to follow Him.
Right on spot. When I say "racial election" I mean that they were a people chosen by God to be groomed (so to speak) to recognize and to point out the Messias to the rest of the world when He came. Many Jews misunderstood this to be that only they would ever be God's people and, like you said, begrudgingly refused to follow Him. |
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"I'm back sinners."
“Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ.” - St. Athanasius, AD 373
"It is granted to few to recognize the true Church amid the darkness of so many schisms and heresies, and to fewer still so to love the truth which they have seen as to fly to its embrace." -St. Robert Bellarmine
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