Card. Levada Defends Rel. Liberty; Claims Abp. Lefebvre was "on path into schism".

[StevusMagnus]

new,

The ideal Catholic state is never one that is religiously indifferent. The ideal is always a state that recognizes the one true religion and, in light of this, works towards perfecting the virtue of man.

Religious liberty is better than persecution of Catholics, obviously. But we should in no way be satisfied with religious liberty as the ideal even in a state where Catholics are in the minority. The ultimate goal for Catholics should be to work towards a Catholic state in their nation that governs based on the principles in QC.

The problem with DH (or at the least, its practical enactment post VCII) is that it cuts off the old Catholic Action movement at the knees. It tells people that there is no use fighting for a Catholic state because the Catholic ideal is already realized in a Religiously Liberal state. This, I think, is an insidious error.

The fruits of practical Church/ State separation can be seen in the US and previously Catholic states in Europe and Latin America. In every case, the public and the government, divorced from Catholic Truth, have descended towards moral oblivion. I think it is the inevitable fruit, once you philosophically divorce religious Truth from the State.

[newschoolman]

The following propositions -- all of them and to the exclusion of none of them -- show forth the ideal.

 

2104 "All men are bound to seek the truth, especially in what concerns God and his Church, and to embrace it and hold on to it as they come to know it."²⁶ This duty derives from "the very dignity of the human person."²⁷ It does not contradict a "sincere respect" for different religions which frequently "reflect a ray of that truth which enlightens all men,"²⁸ nor the requirement of charity, which urges Christians "to treat with love, prudence and patience those who are in error or ignorance with regard to the faith."²⁹

2105 The duty of offering God genuine worship concerns man both individually and socially. This is "the traditional Catholic teaching on the moral duty of individuals and societies toward the true religion and the one Church of Christ."³⁰ By constantly evangelizing men, the Church works toward enabling them "to infuse the Christian spirit into the mentality and mores, laws and structures of the communities in which [they] live."³¹ The social duty of Christians is to respect and awaken in each man the love of the true and the good. It requires them to make known the worship of the one true religion which subsists in the Catholic and apostolic Church.³² Christians are called to be the light of the world. Thus, the Church shows forth the kingship of Christ over all creation and in particular over human societies.³³

2106 "Nobody may be forced to act against his convictions, nor is anyone to be restrained from acting in accordance with his conscience in religious matters in private or in public, alone or in association with others, within due limits."³⁴ This right is based on the very nature of the human person, whose dignity enables him freely to assent to the divine truth which transcends the temporal order. For this reason it "continues to exist even in those who do not live up to their obligation of seeking the truth and adhering to it."³⁵

2107 "If because of the circumstances of a particular people special civil recognition is given to one religious community in the constitutional organization of a state, the right of all citizens and religious communities to religious freedom must be recognized and respected as well."³⁶

2108 The right to religious liberty is neither a moral license to adhere to error, nor a supposed right to error,³⁷ but rather a natural right of the human person to civil liberty, i.e., immunity, within just limits, from external constraint in religious matters by political authorities. This natural right ought to be acknowledged in the juridical order of society in such a way that it constitutes a civil right.³⁸

2109 The right to religious liberty can of itself be neither unlimited nor limited only by a "public order" conceived in a positivist or naturalist manner.³⁹ The "due limits" which are inherent in it must be determined for each social situation by political prudence, according to the requirements of the common good, and ratified by the civil authority in accordance with "legal principles which are in conformity with the objective moral order."⁴⁰

 

 

26 DH 1 # 2.


27 DH 2 # 1.


28 NA 2 # 2.


29 DH 14 # 4.


30 DH 1 # 3.


31 AA 13 # 1.


32 Cf. DH 1.


33 Cf. AA 13; Leo XIII, Immortale Dei 3, 17; Pius XI, Quas primas 8, 20.


34 DH 2 # 1.


35 DH 2 # 2.


36 DH 6 # 3.


37 Cf. Leo XIII, Libertas praestantissimum 18; Pius XII AAS 1953, 799.


38 Cf. DH 2.


39 Cf. Pius VI, Quod aliquantum (1791) 10; Pius IX, Quanta cura 3.


40 DH 7 # 3.

[Caminus]

Oh, see the brilliant weaving of phrases, both true and suspect, so calculated to subtly dance around the question.  Why do you liberals refuse to simply answer the question.  The separation of the Church and State is an evil, certainly to be tolerated at times, but an evil nonetheless.  The Catholic Church and the civil government ought to be united in perfect concord.  To approve of something that was once tolerated is to betray the truth.     

[BackForNow]

ModernistSchoolMan's Kettelerism is very creepy. His constant quoting and obsession with that article is also creepy.

[StevusMagnus]

The following propositions -- all of them and to the exclusion of none of them -- show forth the ideal.

 

NSM,

 

For the sake of discussion, please type out your thoughts and use quotations to support them. Highlighting sentences amidst a sea of quotation does us no good. I have no idea what this post was supposed to mean.

 

[BackForNow]

...the Council proves itself protected by the Holy Ghost from error.

Looks like CMM has gone the way of the Neo-Catholics. I guess that's what happens when you spend too much time in a confessional chitchatting with Novus Ordo priests.

[StevusMagnus]

...the Council proves itself protected by the Holy Ghost from error.

Looks like CMM has gone the way of the Neo-Catholics. I guess that's what happens when you spend too much time in a confessional chitchatting with Novus Ordo priests.

CMM goes back and forth. Just wait a few weeks and he'll be back. ;)

[newschoolman]

Oh, see the brilliant weaving of phrases, both true and suspect, so calculated to subtly dance around the question.  Why do you liberals refuse to simply answer the question.  The separation of the Church and State is an evil, certainly to be tolerated at times, but an evil nonetheless.  The Catholic Church and the civil government ought to be united in perfect concord.  To approve of something that was once tolerated is to betray the truth.     

The Church and state are really distinct entities -- and therefore not "united" in the sense that they become fused into one entity.  The ought to be united in the sense of mutual cooperation with a view toward their respective ends.

[newschoolman]

ModernistSchoolMan's Kettelerism is very creepy. His constant quoting and obsession with that article is also creepy.

What can I say?  I am a creepy dude.

[Caminus]

Oh, see the brilliant weaving of phrases, both true and suspect, so calculated to subtly dance around the question.  Why do you liberals refuse to simply answer the question.  The separation of the Church and State is an evil, certainly to be tolerated at times, but an evil nonetheless.  The Catholic Church and the civil government ought to be united in perfect concord.  To approve of something that was once tolerated is to betray the truth.     

The Church and state are really distinct entities -- and therefore not "united" in the sense that they become fused into one entity.  The ought to be united in the sense of mutual cooperation with a view toward their respective ends.

Right and the Church ought to be the soul of the State, per the papal magisterium.  The analogy of the soul is not to be taken literally, as it is a moral/legal union.  DH did not teach this, it taught the opposite, while allowing for the thesis.  DH made the hypothesis, that which is the result of concrete circumstances, to become the thesis or the principle.