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Author Topic: he commits a most grievous sin, who seeks only carnal pleasure in it. Hence Onan  (Read 3866 times)
luigi
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« on: November 16, 2008, 05:22:PM »

"There are three blessings arising from Matrimony, if it be made a good use of, viz : Children, fidelity, and the grace of the sacrament. The generation of children, together with their proper education, must be had in view, if we would make a good use of matrimony ; but on the contrary, he commits a most grievous sin, who seeks only carnal pleasure in it. Hence Onan, one of the children of the patriarch Juda, is most severely blamed in Scripture for not remembering this, which was to abuse, not use the holy Sacrament. But if sometimes it happen that married people should be oppressed with the number of their children, whom through poverty they cannot easily support, there is a remedy pleasing to God; and this is, by mutual consent to separate from the marriage-bed, and spend their days in prayer and fasting. For if it be agreeable to Him, for married persons to grow old in virginity, after the example of the Blessed Virgin and St. Joseph, (whose lives the Emperor Henry and his wife Chunecunda endeavoured to imitate, as well as King Edward and Egdida, Eleazor a knight, and his lady Dalphina, and several others,) why should it be displeasing to God or men, that married people should not live together as man and wife, by mutual consent, that so they may spend the rest of their days in prayer and fasting?"

--St. Robert Bellarmine, The Art of Dying Well CHAPTER XV. THE FIFTEENTH PRECEPT, ON MATRIMONY.

http://www.archive.org/stream/theartofdyingwel00belluoft/theartofdyingwel00belluoft_djvu.txt

www.goodcatholicbooks.org/pdf/bellarmine_art-of-dying-well.pdf

"But this kind of chastity is also to be observed, that sexual intercourse must not take place heedlessly and for the sake of mere pleasure, but for the sake of begetting children. And since this observance is found even amongst some of the lower animals, it were a shame if it be not observed by men, reasonable, and worshipping God."

--Clement of Alexandria, Recognitions of Clement. Chapter XII: Importance of Chastity 

Saint Caesar of Arles: “As often as he knows his wife without a desire for children… without a doubt he commits sin.”

Errors Condemned by Pope Innocent XI: “9. The act of marriage exercised for pleasure only is entirely free of all fault and venial defect.”–Condemned

Those that be married must examine themselves in particular, if in their mind thinking of other persons, or with intention not to beget children, but only for carnal delight, or with extraordinary touchings and means, they have sinned against the end, and honesty of marriage. -- Ven. Luis de Granada. A SPIRITVAL DOCTRINE, CONTEINING A RVLE To liue vvel, vvith diuers Praiers and Meditations p. 362 (A Spiritual Doctrine, containing a rule to live well, with divers prayers and meditations)

[Edit:]

"Married people were shown the nobility of their calling and he exhorted them to fulfill holily its duties. A lady of the name of Ruet, of Ouroux, in the department of the Rhone, had already a large family and was about to become a mother once more. She came to Ars in order to seek courage at the feet of its holy Cure. She had not long to wait, for M. Vianney summoned her from amid the crowd. "You look very sad my child." he said, when she was on her knees in his confessional. "Oh! I am so advanced in years Father!" He comforted , "my child... if you only knew the women who will go to hell because they did not bring into the world the children they should have given to it."
 
 "Come now my little one, he said with fatherly kindliness to the woman who confided to him her anxiety because of her large family. "do not be alarmed at your burden, our Lord carries it with you. The good God does well all that he does: when he gives many children to a young mother it is that he deems her worthy to rear them. It is a mark of confidence on his part."

Page 311-312 of The Cure D'Ars - Trochu.

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ErinIsNotNice
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« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2008, 06:53:PM »

May I ask why you have posted this?
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StrictCatholicGirl
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« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2008, 07:12:PM »

And what of those who marry - or stay married and sexually active - beyond the age of childbearing?
 
- Lisa

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remnant
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« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2008, 07:13:PM »

So, women past the age of menopause would be committing sin by engaging in relations with their husbands?

SCG, you beat me to it by one minute
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StrictCatholicGirl
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« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2008, 07:24:PM »

Quote from: remnant

SCG, you beat me to it by one minute

And I noticed we're both in line for AARP benefits, too.

Haha. Like-minded women are quick on the draw! 
 
- Lisa

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LaRoza
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« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2008, 07:25:PM »

Quote from: StrictCatholicGirl

And what of those who marry - or stay married and sexually active - beyond the age of childbearing?
 
- Lisa



I don't think so.

Quote from: "Genesis 18:11"

11 Now they were both old, and far advanced in years, and it had ceased to be with Sara after the manner of women. 12 And she laughed secretly, saying: After I am grown old and my lord is an old man, shall I give myself to pleasure? 13 And the Lord said to Abraham: Why did Sara laugh, saying: Shall I who am an old woman bear a child indeed? 14 Is there any thing hard to God? According to appointment I will return to thee at this same time, life accompanying, and Sara shall have a son.
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StrictCatholicGirl
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« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2008, 07:40:PM »

I always thought that passage had more to do with Sarah's lack of sexual desire because of her age. Not that such pleasure is sinful in and of itself. Those of us who are post-menopausal know all about depleted estrogen. Now consider Sarah who was ninety, and in a day and age before hormone replacement therapy!
 
- Lisa
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LaRoza
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« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2008, 07:49:PM »

Quote from: StrictCatholicGirl
I always thought that passage had more to do with Sarah's lack of sexual desire because of her age. Not that such pleasure is sinful in and of itself. Those of us who are post-menopausal know all about depleted estrogen. Now consider Sarah who was ninety, and in a day and age before hormone replacement therapy!
 
- Lisa


I think it is more about her doubting God. They said she'd give birth, and life is always by the will of God, and she doubted because she knew she wasn't of an age when children are usually born.
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ProstrateInAwe
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« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2008, 08:23:PM »

Gee, and I always thought Sarah was the one that proved a woman who was post-menopausal COULD conceive thus making all future acts between mature women and their spouses not simply acts of carnal pleasure but potentially more . . .

Or does one doubt the power of God and "laugh" at the thought???
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StrictCatholicGirl
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« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2008, 09:08:PM »

Quote from: ProstrateinAwe
Gee, and I always thought Sarah was the one that proved a woman who was post-menopausal COULD conceive thus making all future acts between mature women and their spouses not simply acts of carnal pleasure but potentially more .
Or does one doubt the power of God and "laugh" at the thought???

 
Sarah proved that miracles do happen. Of course older couples can be open to life and, in their cases, a true miracle of life. But my point, and I believe Remnant's point, was that the marital act is more than "simply acts of carnal pleasure," even when there is no expectation of a child. 

They "embrace" because they love each other. They are mirroring the self-sacrificing love of Christ and His Church. Babies may or may not be conceived in the process, but the marital act continues to be the greatest expression of their love. There is nothing wrong with sexual pleasure in and of itself. Sexual pleasure does not necessarily = Lust.
 
- Lisa

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