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Author Topic: he commits a most grievous sin, who seeks only carnal pleasure in it. Hence Onan  (Read 3908 times)
Belloc
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Location: Emerging North American Union
Personality type: Phlegmatic
Posts: 1,775


« Reply #30 on: November 17, 2008, 12:11:PM »

Quote from: HMiS
Quote from: Belloc
Quote from: StrictCatholicGirl
. Recently we attended the Catholic wedding of a 60 year old widow and widower. Perhaps they'll live as brother and sister... Or perhaps not.
 
- Lisa


Good points, why are older people allowed, both pre and post-V2 to marry if child bearing is likely  out.....Would not the priests, some becoming bishop and Popes, likely sinning then, if only for reproduction?


And why is marital intercourse allowed during pregnancy?

I know the answer, but some people like to use Doctors of the Church to foster their own puberile absolute opinions.

Got me, but open minded...maybe act of love and unity???
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Don't blame me, I voted Baldwin 2008!


"Catholics throughout the country are again accepting `the lesser of two evils'.... They fail to see the body of Catholic social teaching of such men as Fr. Vincent McNabb, G.K. Chesterton, Belloc, Eric Gill and other Distributists ... and lose all sight of The Little Way."
-Dorothy Day

I thank God that I live in a day when the enemy is outside the Church, and I know where he is, and what he is up to. But, I foresee a day when the enemy will be both outside and inside the Church ... and, I pray for the poor faithful who will be caught in the crossfire. --Cardinal Newman
ggreg
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Gender: Female
Posts: 10,611

Quit since the forum went tranny tender


« Reply #31 on: November 17, 2008, 01:19:PM »

In the most respectful and sincere way possible - I'd ask this.

Is it any wonder that some traditionalists are really miserable sourpusses if they are prone to think like this about sex with their lifelong spouse.

Life is difficult enough without having to worry about my motivation everytime I fancy a bit of slap and tickle.

At least if I was a Hessidic Jew I'd get to wear crazy clothes and drive a Volvo.
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Montgisard
Guest
« Reply #32 on: November 17, 2008, 01:27:PM »

Take the aim of reproduction out of sex and all you get is pleasure. It does not follow automatically that sex establishes a bonding. You can have intercourse with someone and not have any feelings about the person before, during and after. That alone shows that love is an ingredient that can be poured onto sex and change it into something a bit less animal.
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Gabriel
Member

Posts: 534



« Reply #33 on: November 17, 2008, 02:10:PM »

Originally posted by Satori:

Quote
I hope one of the Eastern Catholics will come on here to correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the Eastern Church emphasize Christian marriage primarily as a sign of Christ's love for the Church? I have read that the primary purpose of natural marriage is children, but that for Christians the primary purpose is the sacramental one, and that children, rather than being the main reason for the bond, are emphasized as the natural fruit and crowning glory of the bond. This is why marriages between older people are still good.

This is indeed the teaching of the Eastern Church following Saint John Chrysostom in his Sermon on marriage. To quote Saint John directly:

"Marriage was not instituted for wantonness or fornication, but for chastity. Listen to what Paul says, 'Because of the temptation to immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband.' These are the two purposes for which marriage was instituted: to make us chaste and to make us parents. Of these two, the reason of chastity takes precedence. When desire began, then marriage also began. It sets a limit to desire by teaching us to keep to one wife. Marriage does not always lead to childbearing, although there is the word of God which says, 'Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth.' We have as witnesses all those who are married but childless. So the purpose of chastity takes precedence, especially now, when the whole world is filled with our kind. At the beginning, the procreation of children was desirable, so that each person might leave a memorial of his life. Since there was not yet any hope of resurrection, but death held sway, and those who died thought they would perish after this life, God gave the comfort of children, so as to leave living images of the departed and to preserve our species. For those who were about to die and for their relatives the brightest consolation was their offspring. To understand this was the chief reason for desiring children, listen to the complaint of Job's wife: 'Your memory has perished from the earth; your sons and your daughters.' Likewise Saul says to David, 'Swear to me that you will not destroy my seed and my name along with me.' But now that the resurrection is at our gates, and we do not speak of death, but advance toward another life better than the present, the desire for posterity is superfluous. If you desire children, you can get much better children now, a nobler childbirth and better help in your old age, if you give birth by spiritual labor." (Sermon on Marriage).

This line of thought will be unfamiliar to many from the Western tradition, so I think it appropriate to explain that in Eastern Christian thinking, both Catholic and Orthodox, chastity as the primary reason for marriage means more than just avoiding fornication, but includes especially the call to reflect by husbandly love and wifely reverence the union of Christ and the Church. Faithfulness in this vocation is true chastity.

This may be found in Saint John Chrysostom: On Marriage and Family Life, published by Saint Vladimir Seminary Press.

I agree with Erin that if you read the quotes carefully they go far beyond what the Universal Church has authentically taught on this matter. If what these Fathers and Doctors have stated were to be carried out consistently, absurdities would result and married life would be rather joyless, I think, at least for many of us.
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pbmsemwa
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Gender: Male
Location: Tanzania
Posts: 182


« Reply #34 on: November 17, 2008, 02:12:PM »

This is a good discussion especially for Catholics who want to save their souls. I wish we could get a conclusion at the end. If even BOM is a sinful according to the writing of the Saints you have quoted! Then we have a big problem! How many Catholics families now have 10 children as it used to be in the 60's?? Many are using either BOM or the other artificial means which the church has rejected. In my country young couples who are about to marry are taught about BOM by the church, but I don't think many are using it because it requires a lot of discipline; hence many just use the artificial means which are of cause given a lot of publicity even by the government.  
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StevusMagnus
Guest
« Reply #35 on: November 17, 2008, 02:22:PM »

The OP quotes are saying that a couple should be open to kids during the marital act and not use it as an act of lust.

If the economics are such that another child can't be afforded then it is ok for the couple to abstain for a time to avoid having a child they can't support (grave reasons).

This was before the age of NFP & natural means of spacing children so abstinence was the only other option.

They were in no way saying that infertile couples can't engage in the marital act. The original quotes don't mention that situation at all. They are talking about the intention of the couple being open to life during the act.

Nothing there to be shocked about. JPII said as much and caused scandal when he told people there should be no lust in marriage. The idiot press and comics had a field day because they mistake "lust" for proper sexual desire of a married couple. They are so imbibed in our sex culture, they know of no other feeling related to sex than the sin of lust. 
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Gabriel
Member

Posts: 534



« Reply #36 on: November 17, 2008, 02:54:PM »

The renewal of love through the marital embrace is essential - for most couples - both during and far beyond the childbearing years. Unfortunately those quotes in the OP neither affirm nor deny this. But it really needs to be affirmed or else a very distorted picture of Christian teaching on sexuality arises.
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StrictCatholicGirl
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Posts: 11,329


Downton Addict


« Reply #37 on: November 17, 2008, 02:58:PM »

Quote from: Gabriel
The renewal of love through the marital embrace is essential - for most couples - both during and far beyond the childbearing years. Unfortunately those quotes in the OP neither affirm nor deny this. But it really needs to be affirmed or else a very distorted picture of Christian teaching on sexuality arises.

Amen!

-Lisa
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"We are afraid of God's surprises." -- Pope Francis
Mommie2Boys
Member

Gender: Female
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 671



« Reply #38 on: November 17, 2008, 03:03:PM »

Quote from: ggreg
In the most respectful and sincere way possible - I'd ask this.

Is it any wonder that some traditionalists are really miserable sourpusses if they are prone to think like this about sex with their lifelong spouse.

Life is difficult enough without having to worry about my motivation everytime I fancy a bit of slap and tickle.

At least if I was a Hessidic Jew I'd get to wear crazy clothes and drive a Volvo.

 :lol: LOL :lol: Very true...

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"Lookin' down through a tide of no return
Is a field where the crops no longer grow
Parched is the land, strangled an' be damned
There for the Grace Of God Go I"
Satori
Member

Posts: 7,695



« Reply #39 on: November 17, 2008, 03:10:PM »

Quote from: StevusMagnus

JPII said as much and caused scandal when he told people there should be no lust in marriage. The idiot press and comics had a field day because they mistake "lust" for proper sexual desire of a married couple. They are so imbibed in our sex culture, they know of no other feeling related to sex than the sin of lust. 

Glad you brought this up. A lot of Christians seem to think anything goes once you're married as long as your actions aren't contraceptive. We do need to distinguish between lust and proper sexual desire.

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"Skeptics will always prevail. God gives us just enough to seek Him, and never enough to fully find Him. To do more would inhibit our freedom, and our freedom is very dear to God." --Ron Hansen, "Mariette in Ecstasy"
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