Pronunciation- Ecclesiastical or Classical?

[militiaimmaculata]

Hi,  
 I need help with this question-

Dear Sir,

I write from Brasília, Brazil, and our Vicar has just started to celebrate the Tridentine Mass.

There has been some disputes regarding to whether or not only the Latin Ecclesiastical (or Roman) pronunciation should be used in Traditional Catholic services.

We have searched in different sources for any Vatican documents that could clarify this issue but we haven't succeeded so far.

Do you have any information that could help us?

I would appreciate it very much if someone could put me in the right direction.

           Thanks in advance,
                                militiaimmaculuata

[brotherjuniper]

mm,

The TLM has always been said or sung in ecclesiastical Latin. I believe this is the pronunciation that is still used in Rome to this very day during Papal masses, etc.

I hope this helps.

[militiaimmaculata]

mm,

The TLM has always been said or sung in ecclesiastical Latin. I believe this is the pronunciation that is still used in Rome to this very day during Papal masses, etc.

I hope this helps.

Thanks for your post.
I think they are looking for an actual text or statement from Rome on this matter, to settle the dispute.

[7HolyCats]

I dont think there has ever been a statement. There didnt have to be; it was just always assumed. "Classical pronunciation" is a recent scholarly reconstruction, and no one ever even dreamed of doing the liturgy using it. The question has never come up before. The fact that it has in your diocese, unless a purely hypothetical point, makes it sound like someone is causing trouble for trouble's sake. The Traditional Mass should use the traditional pronunciation, obviously. Anyone trying to say otherwise is just being a trouble-maker.

[DrBombay]

What's the use of teaching boys to say Kissero when for the rest of their lives they'll say Cicero?  Bunch of nonsense in my opinion.

[militiaimmaculata]

I actually re-read the question and he does not say "Classical" anywhere. Although I am assuming he is talking about a dispute between "Classical" and "Ecclesiastical" pronunciation too.  Are there any other ways to pronounce Latin other than the classical and ecclesiastical?
 
     

[LaRoza]

I actually re-read the question and he does not say "Classical" anywhere. Although I am assuming he is talking about a dispute between "Classical" and "Ecclesiastical" pronunciation too.  Are there any other ways to pronounce Latin other than the classical and ecclesiastical?

   

Well, surely there were accents when Latin was used in everyday speach.

I know of no other pronunciation system for Latin other than these two that is known today.

[ForumLurker]

According to Wikipedia and other sources, Pius X recommended the "Roman" or what we know of as the ecclesiastical pronunciation in a letter to the Archbishop of Bourges, but I can't find a copy of that letter anywhere...

The 'classical' pronunciation is an academic reconstruction from the late 1800s. I've never heard anyone use it outside of a classroom, and it sounds a little grating on the ears. Some teachers get really picky about it, but a priest singing "Gloria in ex-kel-sees Deo" would sound kind of ridiculous, and even then most teachers that use it don't follow every detail of it exactly.


Until Pius X, there really wasn't (and in practice, still isn't) any such thing as the ecclesiastical pronunciation, so much as a variety of regional pronunciations that more or less reflected the orthography and pronunciation of the local language. (Wikipedia on local Latin pronunciations)

The common ecclesiastical pronunciation now is the Italian one, but even today you can hear Polish priests pronouncing Latin C as 'ts', German priests pronouncing Latin GE/GI with a hard (velar) g, or French priests pronouncing Latin U with a front vowel, a


Steer him towards the ecclesiastical pronunciation, but in practice it's always been pretty inconsistent.

[7HolyCats]

Oh, if you're talking about local pronunciations of ecclesiastical, that's fine. Sorry if I misunderstood.

The only thing contrasted to "ecclesiastical" as far as I know is reconstructed classical. Which definitely shouldnt be used.

But, on the other hand, I wouldnt think the Roman/Italian version of Ecclesiastical pronunciation is required. Local pronunciations, as long as they are ecclesiastical and not reconstructed classical...should be fine. So, a Portuguese or Spanish "spin" on the pronunciation instead of an Italian one...should be fine. In fact, I'd even encourage it where those languages are spoken.

What's the use of teaching boys to say Kissero when for the rest of their lives they'll say Cicero?  Bunch of nonsense in my opinion.

Ah, but couldnt the same thing be asked of the ecclesiastic pronunciation "Cheechero"??

[Corvino]

Masses being celebrated in Rome, by the Romans, should be the standard.