Salvation and Heretical/Schismatic Sacraments

[didishroom]

Derogatory or not, "Feeneyite" is an accurate word to describe those who hold to Fr. Feeney's erroneous view of EENS
It is your opinion that they are erroneous.

[WhollyRoaminCatholic]

There seems to be this attitude among Neocatholics that as long as one has valid sacraments, it is enough to save you, even if you are not actually Catholic.

This has been on my mind lately.  By most mainstream Protestants, there are only 2 sacraments in practice: Baptism and Marriage.  Holy Mother Church will recognize Baptism and Marriage of Protestants who convert (assuming nothing's goofy about them).

So imagine that a person intends to be a lifelong Presbyterian and is validly baptized.  Then the person immediately is struck by lightening and killed.  Baptism washes away sin, right?  It seems to me that they are immediately admitted into Heaven. 

In this line of thinking, the problem with baptized Protestants is that they never have access to Confession, so they inevitably end up with a dirty soul.

Right?

[didishroom]

So imagine that a person intends to be a lifelong Presbyterian and is validly baptized.  Then the person immediately is struck by lightening and killed.  Baptism washes away sin, right?  It seems to me that they are immediately admitted into Heaven. 
A person who intends to spend his life in heresy does not have a clean soul.



 

[neel]

Derogatory or not, "Feeneyite" is an accurate word to describe those who hold to Fr. Feeney's erroneous view of EENS
It is your opinion that they are erroneous.

Actually, its the opinion of Holy Mother Church.

[veritatem_dilexisti]

Derogatory or not, "Feeneyite" is an accurate word to describe those who hold to Fr. Feeney's erroneous view of EENS
It is your opinion that they are erroneous.

Actually, its the opinion of Holy Mother Church.

That is just how you interpret Her opinion.

[didishroom]

Very true.

Pius XII did not consider Fr. Feeney a heretic.

Bl. John XXIII did not consider him a heretic. He had one of his monsignors review Fr.'s book Bread of Life for errors and reported to the pope that were none.

Paul VI did not consider Fr. Feeney a heretic as he had him reconciled without recanting any errors.

Benedict XVI does not consider Fr. a heretic as he has visited 'Feeneyites' and even spoken in defense of them as Cardinal Ratzinger.
http://www.abbey.org/

[mike6240]

I usually don't touch hot button topics like this one but the subject intrigued me so I'll give it a shot.

This has been on my mind lately.  By most mainstream Protestants, there are only 2 sacraments in practice: Baptism and Marriage. 
 
Not correct.  Most Protestants do believe in two sacraments:  Baptism and Holy Communion.  These were the only sacraments instituted by Christ himself according to the Bible (and according to Protestants).  Now, alot of Evangelicals do idolize Marriage as if it was a sacrament but for classical Protestantism, Baptism and Holy Communion are the only Sacraments. 

You also have to take into account that sacramental theology in classical Protestantism is highly flawed, biased and based on a manmade / political way of thinking.  So when you speak of a Sacrament as a Catholic it's a completely different "animal" to a Protestant.

Grace does indeed exist outside of the Catholic Church:

There was a Protestant man who used to be very faithful in the Episcopal Church.  He was of the High Church variety - smells & bells, Solemn High Masses, Rosary, etc..  After the scandalous teaching of the Anglican / Episcopal Church on women's ordination and moral issues, this Protestant man left the church and pretty much stayed at home, living a nominal Christian life but influenced hugely by secularism.  On Christmas, one year ago, he felt like something was missing in his life - namely God.  He had heard of a Catholic Church a few towns over from where he lived which worshipped in a very similar way as what he was used to in his old Anglo-Catholic parish.  He decided to go and see this strange and peculiar church, because he believed that Catholics worshipped as did Lutherans, due to Vatican II.  How strange it was when this Protestant man entered this peculiar Catholic Church and smelled the lingering odor of incense.  And what in the world was the High Altar doing, all lit up with candles, altar cards, a communion rail and a huge missal on a gold stand?  This can't be right.  Catholic churches are supposed to be full of felt banners, altar tables, wall to wall carpeting and bad music.  Well, this Protestant man attended his first  Traditional Catholic Latin Mass - with all of the smells, bells, gregorian chant and Latin.  But something else, besides the external ritual tugged at him.  Jesus Christ, true God and true Man was there offering His Flesh and Blood to this Protestant man - leading him to His most Sacred Heart and into His Church.  He felt as if he was finally home and approached the parish priest to lead him into the Church that very day.  And you know what?  To this day, that man has never left.  It took only one, single, Catholic Mass to change that Protestant man's life forever. 

And yes, that Protestant man was me. 

Grace does abide outside of the Church.  And yes, salvation is there for all who would hear God's call to the fullness of His Holy Faith.  And that Faith is only found in the Holy Catholic Church.  Believe me, I've looked long and hard, searching for Christ outside of the Church.  I know now that my search is finally over.

[didishroom]

Nice story. People fail to realize the importance of ritual.

[moneil]

Derogatory or not, "Feeneyite" is an accurate word to describe those who hold to Fr. Feeney's erroneous view of EENS
It is your opinion that they are erroneous.

Actually, its the opinion of Holy Mother Church.

That is just how you interpret Her opinion.

Actually, it's how the Council of Trent interpreted it (i.e., Baptism of Desire), in it's Official Catechism, where it is stated:

On adults, however, the Church has not been accustomed to confer the Sacrament of Baptism at once, but has ordained that it be deferred for a certain time. The delay is not attended with the same danger as in the case of infants, which we have already mentioned; should any unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be washed in the salutary waters, their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness.

[neel]

Derogatory or not, "Feeneyite" is an accurate word to describe those who hold to Fr. Feeney's erroneous view of EENS
It is your opinion that they are erroneous.

Actually, its the opinion of Holy Mother Church.

That is just how you interpret Her opinion.

Actually, it's how the Council of Trent interpreted it (i.e., Baptism of Desire), in it's Official Catechism, where it is stated:

On adults, however, the Church has not been accustomed to confer the Sacrament of Baptism at once, but has ordained that it be deferred for a certain time. The delay is not attended with the same danger as in the case of infants, which we have already mentioned; should any unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be washed in the salutary waters, their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness.

Not to mention...

Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, Constitution 1, 1215, ex cathedra: “There is indeed one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which nobody at all is saved, in which Jesus Christ is both priest and sacrifice.”

Was Innocent III a heretic when he declared this concerning a Jew unable to receive baptism (who wanted it?) :“If, however, such a man had died immediately, he would have flown to his heavenly home at once, because of the faith of the sacrament, although not because of the sacrament of faith.” (Dz 413)

So the man who infallibly defined EENS understood it in a way that completely contradicts the Feeneyite error. (error, not heresy. no one has accused those who hold the erroneous interpretation of EENS to be in heresy, only grave error)