Fr. Fitzpatrick vs. Fr. Scott on Validity of SSPX Confessions

[glgas]

We have and know the Truth by the authority of the Church teaching for 2000 years. If something in the present contradicts the past, we reject it.

Did you read all that book and remember everything what you read.

Dis you study carefully at least the Enchiridions (Scripturorum, Patristicum, Symbolorum)? Ho many pages do you remember at least by content? Do you have working knowledge of the Latin and Greek to be able to read them?

What do you do with the statements about the primacy of the popes? Why are those less important than others?

I am sorry to say, but I have a feeling that you pick an extremely limited amount of the teaching, according to your likes, and make them the truth to serve your taste. 

This is the temptation of the Satan. Only God is the truth.

[JMartyr]

We have and know the Truth by the authority of the Church teaching for 2000 years. If something in the present contradicts the past, we reject it.

Did you read all that book and remember everything what you read.

Dis you study carefully at least the Enchiridions (Scripturorum, Patristicum, Symbolorum)? Ho many pages do you remember at least by content? Do you have working knowledge of the Latin and Greek to be able to read them?

What do you do with the statements about the primacy of the popes? Why are those less important than others?

I am sorry to say, but I have a feeling that you pick an extremely limited amount of the teaching, according to your likes, and make them the truth to serve your taste. 

This is the temptation of the Satan. Only God is the truth.

And the Church of God , the Catholic Church  , is God's voice about the Truth.                 

[JMartyr]

Can someone find the canon law  mandating that all clergy must resign themselves to the New Order faith and forsake all things from the traditional faith?

Also would love to see the CL that  penalizes those courageous clergy who chose to preserve the faith, remain faithful to tradition -  there by making themselves break the CL of the New Order.

 Where are these CLs found?   

So what you really have is a theological argument, not a canon law argument. 

The commentary for canon 1335 says even a cleric who incures a  ferendae sententiae or latae sententiae that is declared can absolve validly but illicitly unless the sentence was declaratory or condemnatory that has specifically provided for such invalidating effects. These type of censures may be excommunications. Even if they had jurisdiction they lost it by being excommunicated. They have no jurisdiction just like SSPX priests.This canon provides what they are lacking.

[Stubborn]

glgas, your support and obedience to the New Order, though misguided,  is admirable.

The New Order is your word, I never used or supported that. I first found that word in my fathers library: My New Order by Adolf Hitler. (1942) We were not his supporters. I was stunned why Bush the elder then the younger too, renewed Hitlers idea.

Please glgas, since you know Latin, won't you please  tell us - exactly what is the English translation of  Novus Ordo?

[glgas]

Please glgas, since you know Latin, won't you please  tell us - exactly what is the English translation of  Novus Ordo?

Here you can see and compare with the Latin or other forms of the Mass

http://divinumofficium.com/cgi-bin/missa/Cmissa.pl

It is a quite faithful translation, which hopefully soon will be used all around the English speaking world.

[glgas]

The commentary for canon 1335 says even a cleric who incures a  ferendae sententiae or latae sententiae that is declared can absolve validly but illicitly unless the sentence was declaratory or condemnatory that has specifically provided for such invalidating effects. These type of censures may be excommunications. Even if they had jurisdiction they lost it by being excommunicated. They have no jurisdiction just like SSPX priests.This canon provides what they are lacking.

here is the Canon

Can. 1335 If a censure prohibits the celebration of sacraments or sacramentals or the placing of an act of governance, the prohibition is suspended whenever it is necessary to care for the faithful in danger of death. If a latae sententiae censure has not been declared, the prohibition is also suspended whenever a member of the faithful requests a sacrament or sacramental or an act of governance; a person is permitted to request this for any just cause.

Your statement is true in danger of death. (first sentence)

As for the second sentence there are many question:

- what the declaration of censure means

- who is the member of faithful

The common sense interpretation is that the declaration of censure in this case is synonym with the unknown censure, and the member is from that group of the faithfuls, about whom the censured formerly had jurisdictions. (Example: a pastor actively procures abortion, he can absolve validly those who are unaware about that fact inside his diocese. Other example: If the bishop who ordained Lefevbre to the presbiterate was freemason, as the rumor said, this does not involves that the ordination was valid and licit)

Did the Apostolic See ever defined otherwise?

[Stubborn]

Please glgas, since you know Latin, won't you please  tell us - exactly what is the English translation of  Novus Ordo?

Here you can see and compare with the Latin or other forms of the Mass

http://divinumofficium.com/cgi-bin/missa/Cmissa.pl

It is a quite faithful translation, which hopefully soon will be used all around the English speaking world.

Well we already know the faith of the New Order is totally different from the faith of the Perennial Magisterium - certainly there can be no question there - - - my direct question to you is........... do the words "Novus Ordo" translate as "New Order" or not..........after all, you are an avid supporter of the Novus Ordo yet you wrongly proclaim that you do not and never have supported any such thing.........you also wrongfully post that "The New Order is your [my] word"  which it obviously is not.

So what is it, do you support the New Order or do you not?

I have no intention of insulting you, I am however letting you see for yourself how the NO has gotten you so screwed up that you do not even understand your own words.

[glgas]

do the words "Novus Ordo" translate as "New Order" or not

No The word ordo in this context is significantly different from the meaning of the English world order.

My dictionary says for the Latin ordo: series, line, row in English

You can use the New Ordo (meaning the rule for celebration the Mass)

The New Order is deliberately ambivalent and misleading translation together with the NO abbreviation suggesting the explicit denial of that Holy Mass.

[Stubborn]

do the words "Novus Ordo" translate as "New Order" or not

No The word ordo in this context is significantly different from the meaning of the English world order.

My dictionary says for the Latin ordo: series, line, row in English

You can use the New Ordo (meaning the rule for celebration the Mass)

The New Order is deliberately ambivalent and misleading translation together with the NO abbreviation suggesting the explicit denial of that Holy Mass.

Makes no sense = the entire NO in a nutshell.

Thanks!

[JMartyr]

The commentary for canon 1335 says even a cleric who incures a  ferendae sententiae or latae sententiae that is declared can absolve validly but illicitly unless the sentence was declaratory or condemnatory that has specifically provided for such invalidating effects. These type of censures may be excommunications. Even if they had jurisdiction they lost it by being excommunicated. They have no jurisdiction just like SSPX priests.This canon provides what they are lacking.

here is the Canon

Can. 1335 If a censure prohibits the celebration of sacraments or sacramentals or the placing of an act of governance, the prohibition is suspended whenever it is necessary to care for the faithful in danger of death. If a latae sententiae censure has not been declared, the prohibition is also suspended whenever a member of the faithful requests a sacrament or sacramental or an act of governance; a person is permitted to request this for any just cause.

Your statement is true in danger of death. (first sentence)

As for the second sentence there are many question:

- what the declaration of censure means

- who is the member of faithful

The common sense interpretation is that the declaration of censure in this case is synonym with the unknown censure, and the member is from that group of the faithfuls, about whom the censured formerly had jurisdictions. (Example: a pastor actively procures abortion, he can absolve validly those who are unaware about that fact inside his diocese. Other example: If the bishop who ordained Lefevbre to the presbiterate was freemason, as the rumor said, this does not involves that the ordination was valid and licit)

Did the Apostolic See ever defined otherwise?

Since you have in the past quoted the Ecclesia Dei commission, I would suggest going to http://www.olfatima.com/thisone.htm and click on communications with the Ecclessis Dei commission.  Read about the talks between the bishop and the commission. They  never say his explanation of canon 1335 was wrong or that the SSPX have invalid confessions.