The Title of this sub-forum

[remnant]

Were it not for the encouraging private messages that I get, I would get the impression that it's FE vs. newschoolman.

AWWWW, there there, we do love you.:kiss:

[newschoolman]

Ok, I get the point.  Anyway, what do you think about the notion that all of these debates ultimately boil down to the following:

Dependent "vs." Independent Discussion


It's not really about belonging to an SSPX chapel or a diocesan Parish.  It seems to me the root question centers on: to be or not to be in an irregular status?  Do current circumstances justify an ongoing "independent" existence or are traditional communities obliged to regularize their irregular status to the extent possible?

[QuisUtDeus]

Ok, I get the point.  Anyway, what do you think about the notion that all of these debates ultimately boil down to the following:

Dependent "vs." Independent Discussion


It's not really about belonging to an SSPX chapel or a diocesan Parish.  It seems to me the root question centers on: to be or not to be in an irregular status?  Do current circumstances justify an ongoing "independent" existence or are traditional communities obliged to regularize their irregular status to the extent possible?

Going back to striving for perfection... ;)

It is the priestly societies that are regular or irregular, not the community (i.e., the faithful).

The SSPX would say they're not in an irregular situation.  Rome would say they are.  What both would agree with, however, is that the SSPX doesn't operate under the ordinary jurisdiction of the diocese.  So, that's really the most accurate and unbiased name I could come up with.

[newschoolman]

The SSPX would say they're not in an irregular situation.  Rome would say they are.  What both would agree with, however, is that the SSPX doesn't operate under the ordinary jurisdiction of the diocese.

The SSPX and Rome both understand that the status of the SSPX is irregular -- partially on account of their ongoing recourse to supplied (not ordinary) jurisdiction.  Obviously, if the status was not irregular than there would be no need to appeal to supplied jurisdiction.

Besides all this it would be good to include those traditional communities other than SSPX that operate independent of the ordinary jurisdiction.  

[phaley]

It is only in our times that a priestly society which clings to Tradition in liturgy, practice and belief is said to be in an irregular situation while church officials claim that other religions can lead to salvation, that the old covenant with the Jews is still in effect, that it is perfectly appropriate to pray with representatives of other religions, that it is fine for the holy father to refer to the patriarch of the Orthodox Church as His Holiness, that is is perfectly fine for women to assist in the sanctuary as extraordinary ministers of communion and lectors, that the Body of Christ can be handled by unconsecrated hands, etc, etc, etc.  Yes, they truly are irregular, aren't they?  This is the diabolical disorientation spoken of by Sr. Lucy - no question about it.  And to think there are mature, thinking catholics who defend such a situation.  It boggles the mind!

[newschoolman]

It is only in our times that a priestly society which clings to Tradition in liturgy, practice and belief is said to be in an irregular situation...

There is more to it than that.  For example, there are other traditional communities with ordinary jurisdiction that cling to Tradition in liturgy, practice and belief.   

[phaley]

It is only in our times that a priestly society which clings to Tradition in liturgy, practice and belief is said to be in an irregular situation...

There is more to it than that.  For example, there are other traditional communities with ordinary jurisdiction that cling to Tradition in liturgy, practice and belief.   

Yes, and they have to keep their collective mouths shut on all the abuses I've mentioned.  That is the difference; the SSPX cannot be muzzled and that is why they are so marginalized and hated.

[QuisUtDeus]

The SSPX would say they're not in an irregular situation.  Rome would say they are.  What both would agree with, however, is that the SSPX doesn't operate under the ordinary jurisdiction of the diocese.

The SSPX and Rome both understand that the status of the SSPX is irregular -- partially on account of their ongoing recourse to supplied (not ordinary) jurisdiction.  Obviously, if the status was not irregular than there would be no need to appeal to supplied jurisdiction.

Besides all this it would be good to include those traditional communities other than SSPX that operate independent of the ordinary jurisdiction.  

Well, all I can say is what I said in the original thread...

Vox Clamantis locuta est; causa finita est.

[newschoolman]

Yes, and they have to keep their collective mouths shut on all the abuses I've mentioned. 

Nobody is muzzled.  Canon law provides for the proper ways to raise questions and/or voice concerns.  These proper channels are available to all Catholics and the Church expects us to use them.  Nobody is forced to keep their mouth shut, however, we are expected to follow the proceedures of canon law -- acting always with charity AND humility. 

[phaley]

Yes, and they have to keep their collective mouths shut on all the abuses I've mentioned. 

Nobody is muzzled.  Canon law provides for the proper ways to raise questions and/or voice concerns.  These proper channels are available to all Catholics and the Church expects us to use them.  Nobody is forced to keep their mouth shut, however, we are expected to follow the proceedures of canon law -- acting always with charity AND humility. 

Nobody is muzzled???  That's your way of looking at it...proper channels (your phrase) accomplishes nothing when the modernists are in charge of those "channels".  All one has to do is remember Cardinal Hoyos's "conditions" imposed on the SSPX for dialogue to continue.  But, you know, your answer is predictable for someone infected with the rose-colored glasses and new springtime of Vatican II. 

It is my hope the one day you will see the truth for what it is - the modernists, infected with the spirit of liberalism, are running things in Rome.  But, then, I suspect you were formed without the benefit if a traditional catholic education prior to 1962 and, therefore, are allied with the modernist cause and philosophy.  I shall offer my prayers for you that you may see the light one day.