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Author Topic: Fr. Leslie RIP - Modernists Attempt to Block Catholic Funeral  (Read 6826 times)
moneil
Red Fish
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Gender: Male
Location: Pullman, Washington, United States, North America
Posts: 2,137



« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2009, 11:54:PM »

Quote from: neel
Quote from: moneil
Me thinks not.


I bet the good Bishop would!

IDK, but maybe.  Though I don't hold his theological position (and was prayerfully very happy when some of the CMRI nuns from The Mount came over to the Diocese of Spokane) - at that time I checked out the CMRI web site, and His Excellency seems like a very level headed and very pastoral kind of bishop.  But, if the Jesuit in my example (and it is a very hypothetical example) asked for a Mass of Christian Burial in the Ordinary Form at The Mount, I'm sure His Excellency would draw the line .

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tridentinist
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Gender: Male
Personality type: Choleric melancholic
Posts: 243



« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2009, 01:41:AM »

Quote from: Robb

Are there any Catholic Afrikaners?


Robb,

I assume by Afrikaners you mean White South Africans whose home language is Afrikaans - mainly a derivative of Dutch, spoken by descendants of 17th and 18th century Dutch and French Hugenot (Calvinist) settlers.

In answer to that, yes, some are Catholics, but not very many. Most Afrikaners in that sense are Protestants, and traditionally Calvinist ones at that. There are exceptions of course, but they are a small minority of the Afrikaner community.

Most white Catholics in this country are not Afrikaners, but belong to the English-speaking community (about 40% of the white population), which is mainly of British and Irish descent, and who would not call themselves Afrikaners! A fair number of people of Portuguese, Italian, and other European stock, also live in this country, many if not most of whom (other than the Greeks) are at least nominally Catholic. They too would not call themselves Afrikaners.

In the broader meaning of the term, Afrikaner could mean anyone whose home language is Afrikaans, whatever the race. The majority of coloured (mixed race) people here are Afrikaans-speaking, and many of them are Catholics.

All told, however, the majority of Catholics in this country are black people.

God bless.
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QuisUtDeus
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« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2009, 03:51:AM »

Quote from: PilgrimageofGrace

Mr Nell,

If it is possible for you to send some photographs of Father's Requiem Mass and burial by e-mail to SSPX in Britain it would be greatly appreciated. Father is very fondly thought of and has many friends from his time over here.

Please contact me if you need the District's e-mail address.

You should probably PM or e-mail him (depending upon what he has turned on) to make sure he sees your request.

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HMiS
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Gender: Male
Posts: 6,172



« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2009, 06:05:AM »

The religion of love. That religion of love of the 1970s.

Of the church-like clerical "Red Army Factions", who attack all that do not agree with their Revolution.
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„Ja, Ja, wie Gott es will. Gott lohne es Euch. Gott schütze das liebe Vaterland. Für Ihn weiterarbeiten... oh, Du lieber Heiland!” ("Yes, Yes, as God wills it. May God repay it to you. May God protect the dear fatherland. Go on working for him... oh, you dear Savior!") - Clemens August Cardinal von Galen, his last words.
HMiS
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Posts: 6,172



« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2009, 06:08:AM »

Requiescat in pace.

I hope South African lay Roman Catholics and clergy will see the hypocrisy in these outrageous insults to Fr. Leslie. And how the same Conciliar cardinal etc. all cowtow if a Buddhist or Protestant would like to do the same.
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„Ja, Ja, wie Gott es will. Gott lohne es Euch. Gott schütze das liebe Vaterland. Für Ihn weiterarbeiten... oh, Du lieber Heiland!” ("Yes, Yes, as God wills it. May God repay it to you. May God protect the dear fatherland. Go on working for him... oh, you dear Savior!") - Clemens August Cardinal von Galen, his last words.


PilgrimageofGrace
Member

Posts: 537



« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2009, 11:02:AM »

Quote
Posted by QuisUtDeus
You should probably PM or e-mail him (depending upon what he has turned on) to make sure he sees your request.
  Handy hint taken and acted upon.

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StevusMagnus
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« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2009, 11:18:AM »

Quote from: moneil
Quote from: StevusMagnus
I suppose legalism trumps Catholic charity, the greatest of all virtues, in the eyes of these Bishops. I wonder if the Protestant ministers that many Novus Ordo Bishops allow to perform ordinations in their Cathedrals have faculties?


The death of Father Leslie was a horrific tragedy, and from the accounts, he was loved by Catholics of whatever camp in his community.

That being said, and knowing only what brief information is in the cited article, I do give Cardinal Napier some benefit of the doubt.  Stevus is more than often so very, very critical of Roman Catholic Bishops for not enforcing and following rubrics, cannons, and other church directives and protocals, but here he things they should just be trumped in the name of charity because Stevus is sympathetic to the circumstances?

It is true that Roman Catholic Churches in the Ordinary Form are permitted to be used in special circumstances for non Catholic functions (usually weddings and funerals - I've never heard of an ordination in these cases). 


Seeing as how the Catholic Church in Lourdes in Liberal France allowed the SSPX Bishops to offer Mass there, it is wholly inexcusable for the local Bishop to not allow his church for the funeral mass of a deceased Traditional priest. I guess his following of the "law" is stricter than Rome's on the matter. In addition it is a fact hat churches in the US have been used for Protestant "ordinations". I don't have the cites on hand but can get them later. There are even ecumenical directives on the books whereby Catholics and Protestants can share "worship spaces". This is not a case of the Bishop simply following the law. It is a case of him trying to apply a stricter standard for a poor traditional priest's funeral than exists for Protestants and others. Since the Catholic authorities allowed Lourdes, I don't think the Bishop has a leg to stand on. His bias shows through based on the facts. I think he's using his rationale as an excuse.

On top of all this, charity dictates you let the man have a funeral in your Church. He's a Catholic priest and your Pope just lifted excommunications ands is about to regularize the Society he worked with. And you are going to forbid him a Mass in your church? I wonder what the Pope would think about this. You can't tell me that wasn't a bush league petty move.
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StevusMagnus
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« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2009, 11:25:AM »

What makes this even more ridiculous is that the Archbishop thinks the Society doesn't recognize his authority. He just assumes this. They do and have asked for faculties from Bishops on occassion and have been denied. So the Archbishop could have given them faculties for this one time. Instead he uses the false pretense that they don't recognize his authority.

Also faculties are irrelevant since, as I pointed out, Catholic Bishops have allowed Protestant ordinations in their Cathedrals. Furthermore Bishop Fellay had no facultes and said Mass in a Catholic church in Lourdes. In addition Catholics are allowed to fuilfill their Sunday obligation at these Masses with priests without faculties

And did the Bishop actually ask why they want to have the mass in a Catholic Church? I think that to ask that question would be insulting to Father's memory and the Society. He acts like an auditorium is just as good.


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moneil
Red Fish
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Location: Pullman, Washington, United States, North America
Posts: 2,137



« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2009, 01:55:PM »

Quote from: StevusMagnus

This is not a case of the Bishop simply following the law. It is a case of him trying to apply a stricter standard for a poor traditional priest's funeral than exists for Protestants and others. Since the Catholic authorities allowed Lourdes, I don't think the Bishop has a leg to stand on. His bias shows through based on the facts. I think he's using his rationale as an excuse.



Stevus, I sincerely appreciate your sentiment, and it may be justified, depending.  The main point I was trying to make, in my imperfect way, was that I don't think we can conclude what Cardinal Napier's intentions were from the cited news account.  Not being familiar with his archdiocese, his personal viewpoints about traditionalist communities and the SSPX, nor understanding what the prior relationship had been between the archdiocese and the SSPX community, to draw conclusions about his motives would be speculative, and I still sincerely believe that His Eminence is entitled to the benefit of the doubt, without further nuance about the situation being available.

Quote from: StevusMagnus
On top of all this, charity dictates you let the man have a funeral in your Church. He's a Catholic priest and your Pope just lifted excommunications ands is about to regularize the Society he worked with. And you are going to forbid him a Mass in your church? I wonder what the Pope would think about this. You can't tell me that wasn't a bush league petty move.


The local archdiocesan parish, as reported in the cited article, was willing to provide the funeral rites for Father Leslie - celebrated by archdiocesan priests (whether those rites would have been in the ordinary or the extraordinary form we have no way of knowing from the article).  It is really untrue to say that the archdiocese refused to allow him to have a funeral in one of their parish churches, which was the report Cardinal Napier was responding to.  That is the same kind of reporting that says Bishop Williamson "denies the holocaust", when he in fact simply quibbles over the details.  Fair and honest journalism should apply to everybody.

And, I must say, after reading "... in your Church. He's a Catholic priest and your Pope...", that it has been my impression that Pope Benedict XVI was your Pope also, and that we were both Roman Catholics.

Quote from: StevusMagnus
... So the Archbishop could have given them faculties for this one time.  Instead he uses the false pretense that they don't recognize his authority.

Also faculties are irrelevant since, as I pointed out, Catholic Bishops have allowed Protestant ordinations in their Cathedrals. Furthermore Bishop Fellay had no faculties and said Mass in a Catholic church in Lourdes ...

I'm not a canon lawyer, nor a Successor to the Apostles (i.e., a Bishop), just a simple lay person (and a dairy farmer at that), so I really don't have any standing to comment on, nor expertise to interpret, the relevancy, or not, of faculties in this situation.  The examples I gave in my previous post (weddings and funerals), and in your example (ordinations), are about non Catholic functions being held in a Catholic church building - faculties are indeed irrelevant in those situations - those would simple involve whether the Church's guidelines and canons were appropriately followed when the dispensations to use the buildings were granted.  When we are talking about a Roman or Eastern Catholic liturgical or sacramental function being held in a diocesan parish church, I'm thinking that the granting of faculties and the approval of the local ordinary may indeed have some relevance.

Also, as is often pointed out here at Fisheaters, there is a wide degree of how individual Bishops interpret and apply the Church's norms.  They are individuals, they function in differing cultural and geo-political environments, and they are called on to appropriately apply the Church's directives in particular pastoral situations.  We do hope that they also have the "mind of Christ and the Church" as they do this.  IMHO it is perhaps a bit simplistic to argue that because a Bishop on one continent allowed something, a Bishop on another continent should allow something, especially when, without a lot more information, I can't decipher how similar these situations actually are.

So, with all that, indeed Cardinal Napier may have been insensitive, been a jerk, may have applied punitive, non Christ like decisions against the SSPX, or was just not as pastoral and charitable as he could have been,  or not.  There is simple just not enough nuance and information in the article to decide.
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StevusMagnus
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« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2009, 02:14:PM »

Quote from: moneil


And, I must say, after reading "... in your Church. He's a Catholic priest and your Pope...", that it has been my impression that Pope Benedict XVI was your Pope also, and that we were both Roman Catholics.

Of course we are. The comments were applicable to the NO Bishop, the point being his own Pope allowed Society priests to celebrate a Mass at Lourdes, but his excellency knows better in his own diocese.

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