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Author Topic: Speaking of Emperors  (Read 1916 times)
Caesar
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Posts: 52



« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2009, 01:54:AM »

Quote from: 7HolyCats
Quote
Yes, but the question is, who could legitimately claim the Holy Roman Empire (if we are to understand the Empire less as a historical state and more of a concept)?


Neither and both. Three constitutive elements need to be rejoined, it seems.

Ah, so what you are saying is that the Empire was split into three (similar to the previous rending of the Empire into East and West)? Interesting theory, and one that I have never really considered. My own take on the matter has been that the throne of Charlemagne has been vacant since 1806.

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"They do not want to hear about the Grace of God? They will hear the grace of the cannon!"
-- Alfred I Candidus Ferdinand, Prince of Windisch-Grätz
Caesar
Member

Posts: 52



« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2009, 02:01:AM »

Quote

But Napoleon wasnt the Revolution. He was a reaction to it, not a restoration of the ancien regime, but certainly a return to ideas of church-state interaction, order, authority, etc

There is a line, it exists, it has supporters, and we cant ignore that he was clearly de facto emperor in terms of his conquest of Europe, and even crowned by the Pope.


I agree that the Revolution was not embodied by Napoleon, but I see no reason to believe that his return to the ideals of the ancien regime was any but political tact. He quite openly regarded the Church as but a means of controlling the people, and loosened the restrictions on Catholics (while, at the same time, preserving many elements of the Revolution, like religious liberty) to appease Rome.

Napoleon's first priority was Napoleon.

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"They do not want to hear about the Grace of God? They will hear the grace of the cannon!"
-- Alfred I Candidus Ferdinand, Prince of Windisch-Grätz
WanderingPenitent
A spiritual Knight-Errant.
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Gender: Male
Location: Wisconsin
Personality type: INTJ, Choleric.
Posts: 1,082


Fear Not the Cold


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« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2009, 01:43:PM »

The Title of Holy Roman Emperor must be chosen by lawful authority, by election or hereditary, and approved by the Sovereign Pontiff. So I am very curious as to why people still make the claim to a Title that must be granted by His Holiness to begin with.

And if I were to acknowledge the "Queen" of England, Elizabeth of the House of Windsor, then I would have to acknowledge that the House of Commons can arbitrarily decide who can wear the crown, rather then it be the will of God, the laws laid down, and the Church. The "Bloodless" Revolution was a blasphemy against everything the Monarchy had been. If followed to its natural conclusion then the throne should be done away with for it is not an eternal seat but something that can be changed and moved at the wim of the parliament.
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"I would rather fall with Adam,
than rise with all your gods."
-G.K.Chesteron

Bloggers were invented ca. 300 AD. and were originally called "monks." Like their distant social descendants, monks had horrible haircuts, rarely left their home, spoke a language to eachother no one else understood, and never went on dates.
7HolyCats
Member

Posts: 1,040


« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2009, 02:56:PM »

Quote
Ah, so what you are saying is that the Empire was split into three (similar to the previous rending of the Empire into East and West)? Interesting theory, and one that I have never really considered. My own take on the matter has been that the throne of Charlemagne has been vacant since 1806.

Well, the full imperial throne basically has been. Exactly because it was split into three and so no one of the three can claim the fullness of it, though each can claim one of the essential constituent elements of Charlemagne's legacy (the French element, the German element, and the Austrian element).

Quote
And if I were to acknowledge the "Queen" of England, Elizabeth of the House of Windsor, then I would have to acknowledge that the House of Commons can arbitrarily decide who can wear the crown, rather then it be the will of God, the laws laid down, and the Church. The "Bloodless" Revolution was a blasphemy against everything the Monarchy had been. If followed to its natural conclusion then the throne should be done away with for it is not an eternal seat but something that can be changed and moved at the wim of the parliament.

You will notice here, though, that I dont include the Queen for England (which throne is only royal, not imperial) but rather for India, which possesses, theoretically, one of the Imperial titles, and which was only taken by the British monarchy after everything you are talking about occured. Though, as I've said, I highly prefer the Mughal claim over the colonial British one.

Still, you seem to have some "mystical" view of monarchy, legitimacy, and divine right. Parliamentary channels are totally legitimate, dynasties have changed through many means (including usurpation and deposition) throughout history. The new ruler rules by Divine Right through accomplished fact. Especially after a generation or so, the de facto ruler is de jure. You are acting as if civil authority is from God by some sort of positive institution on His part, but it is more indirect than that.

See the New Advent article (from 1917) on the traditional Catholic theology on the origins of Civil Authority:
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Civil authority is of God, not by any revelation or positive institution, but by the mere fact that God is the Author of Nature, and Nature imperatively requires civil authority to be set up and obeyed.

Quote
Obedience, being a practical thing and not a speculation, cannot abstract from the concrete facts of the case; it is paid to the powers that be, to the authority actually in possession. Obedience is as disobedience; men are never disobedient except to the government of the day.

Quote
The one point fixed by nature, and by God, is that there must be authority everywhere, and that the authority existent for the time being, under such and such a form, be under that form obeyed; for since there is no actual authority in the country except under that form, to refuse to obey that is to refuse authority simply, and to revert to anarchy, which is against nature: just as a man having nothing but bread and cheese to eat, and refusing to eat his bread and cheese, under pretence that he much prefers mutton, condemns himself to starvation, which again is unnatural. But we must beware of saying of any particularform of authority, monarchy for example, or democracy either, what is  true only of authority in the abstract, namely, that all nations are bound to live under it, and that never under any pretence can it be subverted. A country, once monarchical, is not eternally bound to monarchy; and circumstances are conceivable under which a republic might pass into monarchy, as Rome did under Augustus, much to its advantage. Authority rules by Divine right under whatsoever form it is established. No one form of government is more sacred and inviolate than another. Change of persons holding office is usually provided in the constitution, sometimes by rotation, sometimes by vote of the legislative assembly. No monarchical constitution provides for the change of the person of the monarch otherwise than by death or resignation. Change of the form of government can be effected constitutionally, but, as history shows, as often as not, it is brought about unconstitutionally. When the change is complete, the new government rules by right of accomplished fact. There must be authority in the country, and theirs is the only authority available.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02137c.htm

I may personally wish to see the Imperial (and other) thrones restored in some ideal world, but I am not so unreasonable as to believe the governments currently ruling by right of accomplished fact are illegitimate or that their authority (for as long as they possess it practically) is not of God. That would be like the man who prefers mutton refusing to eat the bread and cheese currently available. Obedience is practical, not speculative.
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warning
Member

Posts: 1,152



« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2009, 03:07:PM »

Quote from: 7HolyCats
Pray for these men (and, in two cases, women), if you believe in Primacy and Authority, and rendering unto Caesar.
Include this exiled Roman Catholic King as well:

King of Rwanda Kigeli V Ndahindurwa who from what I have heard attends an independent Latin Mass Chapel somewhere in Washington D.C.


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“He is therefore not a true lover of the common good who does not desire and work as much as is permissible in his station to make the whole world subject to one monarch.”
William of Ockham d 1347

“GOOD SUCCESS BE TO THE ROMANS, and to the people of the Jews, by sea and by land for ever: and far be the sword and enemy from them.” First Book Of Machabees 8:23

“Fight, children of light, you, the few who can see. For now is the time of all times, the end of all ends.” Our Lady of La Salette

"No ordinary man can discern the beginning of evil, but only the true statesman." Aristotle Politics







7HolyCats
Member

Posts: 1,040


« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2009, 03:58:PM »

I'll pray for him too...but this thread was about listing the IMPERIAL thrones and their current head (or pretender).

There are many merely royal and lesser crowns, too many to list.

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