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Author Topic: "Pope should declare Holocaust denial a heresy"  (Read 2619 times)
Cambrensis
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« on: February 19, 2009, 03:00:PM »

Quote
Vatican's response to denial must be Holocaust education

By Menachem Z. Rosensaft · February 9, 2009

NEW YORK (JTA) -- Richard Williamson, one of the four excommunicated bishops whom Pope Benedict XVI wants to bring back into the Roman Catholic fold, is not the only Holocaust denier in the Society of St. Pius X, an ultra-right-wing splinter group of the Roman Catholic Church.

The Italian branch of the society announced that it has expelled the Rev. Floriano Abrahamowicz for telling the northern Italian newspaper La Tribuna di Treviso that “I know that gas chambers existed at least for disinfection, but I don’t know if they were used to kill people or not.” Abrahamowicz, who called Jews “the people of deicide,” also has described the reforms instituted by the Second Ecumenical Council of the Vatican, commonly referred to as Vatican II, which absolved contemporary Jews of responsibility for the death of Jesus Christ, as “worse than heresy.”

Abrahamowicz’s expulsion came in the wake of the firestorm over Williamson’s declaration on Swedish television that “I believe that the historical evidence is largely against, is hugely against 6 million Jews having been deliberately gassed in gas chambers as a deliberate policy of Adolf Hitler." Later he said, "I believe there were no gas chambers” and that between 200,000 and 300,000 Jews perished in Nazi concentration camps, "but none of them by gas chambers.”

Williamson is also openly anti-Semitic. He has endorsed the authenticity of the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion," the notorious Russian czarist forgery that purports to depict a Jewish conspiracy to rule the world, and has written publicly of “the false messianic vocation of Jewish world-dominion to prepare the Anti-Christ's throne in Jerusalem.”

Faced with open revolt by leading Roman Catholic cardinals and bishops, especially in Germany and Austria, the Vatican last week conditioned Williamson’s rehabilitation on his “absolutely, unequivocally and publicly” recanting his position on the Holocaust. Williamson has refused, at least for the time being. First he wants to review the historical evidence.

"If I find proof I would rectify [earlier statements]," Williamson told the German weekly magazine Der Spiegel, adding later, "But all that will take time."

It is outrageous that Pope Benedict XVI did not immediately respond to Williamson’s stalling tactics by reinstating the renegade bishop’s excommunication. When members of the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations leaders meet with the pope later this week, they must demand that he categorically and permanently revoke Williamson’s rehabilitation.

Pope Benedict hopes that the memory of the Holocaust “will prompt humanity to reflect on the unpredictable power of evil when it conquers the hearts of men.” But statements condemning Holocaust denial and reaffirming ecumenical sentiments toward the Jewish people are not enough. Pope Benedict should affirmatively declare Holocaust denial to be heresy, and the Vatican should undertake a comprehensive program of Holocaust education.

Students at Roman Catholic schools, universities and seminaries throughout the world must be taught not only that the Holocaust occurred, but that centuries of Christian anti-Semitism helped make it possible. They must be taught that while Bishop Angelo Giuseppe Roncalli, later Pope John XXIII, helped rescue Jews from the Nazis during World War II, and that Archbishop Jules-Geraud Saliege of Toulouse, France, spoke out publicly on their behalf, Pope Pius XII remained silent, as did most Catholic cardinals, bishops and priests.

They must be taught that thousands upon thousands of baptized Christians actively participated in the mass murder of European Jewry, and that hundreds of thousands looked on or looked away. They must be taught that many of the French policemen of the collaborationist Vichy regime who rounded up French Jews and helped send them to their deaths at Auschwitz regularly attended Mass on Sundays. They must be taught that the Vatican never excommunicated Adolf Hitler or other baptized Nazi leaders, and that after World War II, Bishop Alois Hudal was instrumental in spiriting Nazi war criminals to safety in Latin America.

They must be taught that the Franciscan priest Miroslav Filipovic, known as “Fra Sotona” (”Brother Satan”), was a brutal commander of the Jasenovac concentration camp in Croatia run by the collaborationist Ustasha regime, and that the Archbishop of Sarajevo, Ivan Saric, enthusiastically supported and advocated the persecution and murder of Jews.

While the Vatican’s relations with the Society of St. Pius X is an internal matter, its attitude and Pope Benedict XVI’s attitude toward Holocaust denial and Holocaust deniers affects us all. My 5 1/2-year-old brother, my mother’s son, was murdered in a gas chamber at Auschwitz. For the sake of continued Jewish-Catholic relations, all Catholics, indeed all Christians, must be taught that my brother’s brutal death, and the deaths of  more than 1 million Jewish children who perished in the Holocaust, is at least as real as the death of a Jew named Jesus in Jerusalem nearly 2,000 years ago.

(Menachem Z. Rosensaft, a lawyer in New York City, is the founding chairman of the International Network of Children of Jewish Holocaust Survivors and vice president of the American Gathering of Jewish Holocaust Survivors and Their Descendants.)
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Yet som men say in many partys of Inglonde that Kynge Arthur ys nat dede, but had by the wyll of Oure Lorde Jesu into another place; and men say that he shall come agayne, and he shall wynne the Holy Crosse.  Yet I woll nat say that hit shall be so; but rather I wolde sey, here in thys worlde he chaunged hys lyff. And many men say that there ys wrytten uppon the tumbe thys:  Hic iacet Arthurus Rex quondam Rexque futurus.
didishroom
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« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2009, 03:05:PM »

These idiots don't even know what heresy is.

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"We're from Jersey. Not New Jersey, just Jersey.  We curse a lot. We say "yo" and we say it often. We sure as hell don't pump our own gas. We know what real pizza tastes like and we know that a bagel is much more than a roll wit a hole in the middle. We judge people by what exit they are off the parkway or by what mall they live closest to. We drive SUVs and we tailgate any chance we get.  All good nights must end in a diner, preferably with cheese fries. It's a sub, not a hoagie or a hero. and I wash it down with soda, not pop.  I have a dawg, and I drink cawfee.  ..and New York City, is "the city." We know 65 mph means 80 mph."-Anon

Foolish then, is he who departs from the Vicar of Christ Crucified, who has the keys of the Blood, or who goes against him . . . Even though the pope were satan incarnate himself, I may not lift up my head against him, but I must always humble myself, and beg for the Blood as a mercy, for in no other wise can I obtain a part of it -St. Catherine of Sienna.


If desire has equal power with actual Baptism, you would then be satisfied to desire Glory, as though that longing itself were Glory!-St. Gregory Nazianzen.
7HolyCats
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Posts: 1,040


« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2009, 03:11:PM »

Quote
Students at Roman Catholic schools, universities and seminaries throughout the world must be taught not only that the Holocaust occurred, but that centuries of Christian anti-Semitism helped make it possible

If I had any energy left for these people, I'd be so angry right now...

Quote
They must be taught that thousands upon thousands of baptized Christians actively participated in the mass murder of European Jewry, and that hundreds of thousands looked on or looked away.

Why? To prove that baptism doesnt suddenly make you a good person?? We already knew that. Unlike Judaism, we dont claim any moral quality for people just because they happen to be Christian. No one would be surprised by this, and the fact that he thinks the fact is somehow relevant...

Quote
They must be taught that many of the French policemen of the collaborationist Vichy regime who rounded up French Jews and helped send them to their deaths at Auschwitz regularly attended Mass on Sundays. They must be taught that the Vatican never excommunicated Adolf Hitler or other baptized Nazi leaders, and that after World War II, Bishop Alois Hudal was instrumental in spiriting Nazi war criminals to safety in Latin America.

Again, out of all the people who did and do horrible things, why must the stories of the Catholic ones be made especially part of the "canonical" narrative?

This is anti-christian rhetoric, and yet it's being published as if it is just fine. To say similar things about the Jews, to make similar generalizations or to suggest emphasizing the bad Jews throughout history as if it had some special implication for them as a group...would be considered "antisemitic"...!
 
 
Quote
For the sake of continued Jewish-Catholic relations, all Catholics, indeed all Christians, must be taught that my brother’s brutal death, and the deaths of more than 1 million Jewish children who perished in the Holocaust, is at least as real as the death of a Jew named Jesus in Jerusalem nearly 2,000 years ago.

"At least"!?!?!? Perhaps I'd agree if you said, "at most"...even then, it's pushing it, given the eschatological nature of the Christ event, essential to history, versus the more accidental/contingent nature of other individual deaths.

And the deaths of people in the shoah were no more valuable than any person who dies just because it happened to be concentrated spatially and temporally.

Suffering is entirely subjective, personal, individual...so I dont really see it as "additive" somehow. 6 million deaths are really as bad as just 1 death. Suffering isnt cumulative that way. If I am in a room, and you're torturing me...my suffering is just as great whether the same thing is happening to a billion other people, or to no one else. For the people who are tortured or lose loved ones...it really doesnt matter if they were the only ones, or if they were one case among millions.
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didishroom
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Location: North Jersey(Yes Central and South Jersey are something different)
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Guten Morgen!


« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2009, 03:20:PM »

Are they going to be forced to know that the Church under Pius XII's direction saved more Jews than anyone or any group?

Are they going to be taught that Nazi anti-semetism is based on Darwinian Eugenics and had nothing to do with Christian/Jewish antagonism?



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"We're from Jersey. Not New Jersey, just Jersey.  We curse a lot. We say "yo" and we say it often. We sure as hell don't pump our own gas. We know what real pizza tastes like and we know that a bagel is much more than a roll wit a hole in the middle. We judge people by what exit they are off the parkway or by what mall they live closest to. We drive SUVs and we tailgate any chance we get.  All good nights must end in a diner, preferably with cheese fries. It's a sub, not a hoagie or a hero. and I wash it down with soda, not pop.  I have a dawg, and I drink cawfee.  ..and New York City, is "the city." We know 65 mph means 80 mph."-Anon

Foolish then, is he who departs from the Vicar of Christ Crucified, who has the keys of the Blood, or who goes against him . . . Even though the pope were satan incarnate himself, I may not lift up my head against him, but I must always humble myself, and beg for the Blood as a mercy, for in no other wise can I obtain a part of it -St. Catherine of Sienna.


If desire has equal power with actual Baptism, you would then be satisfied to desire Glory, as though that longing itself were Glory!-St. Gregory Nazianzen.
phnuggle
Guest
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2009, 03:29:PM »

Oh FFS. I am so tired of non-Catholics playing Pope.
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Aviz
Guest
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2009, 03:55:PM »

...and non-catholics running the Vatican.
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didishroom
Member

Gender: Male
Location: North Jersey(Yes Central and South Jersey are something different)
Personality type: Sanguine/Melancholic
Posts: 4,667


Guten Morgen!


« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2009, 03:58:PM »

We so need to bring this back.

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"We're from Jersey. Not New Jersey, just Jersey.  We curse a lot. We say "yo" and we say it often. We sure as hell don't pump our own gas. We know what real pizza tastes like and we know that a bagel is much more than a roll wit a hole in the middle. We judge people by what exit they are off the parkway or by what mall they live closest to. We drive SUVs and we tailgate any chance we get.  All good nights must end in a diner, preferably with cheese fries. It's a sub, not a hoagie or a hero. and I wash it down with soda, not pop.  I have a dawg, and I drink cawfee.  ..and New York City, is "the city." We know 65 mph means 80 mph."-Anon

Foolish then, is he who departs from the Vicar of Christ Crucified, who has the keys of the Blood, or who goes against him . . . Even though the pope were satan incarnate himself, I may not lift up my head against him, but I must always humble myself, and beg for the Blood as a mercy, for in no other wise can I obtain a part of it -St. Catherine of Sienna.


If desire has equal power with actual Baptism, you would then be satisfied to desire Glory, as though that longing itself were Glory!-St. Gregory Nazianzen.
Aviz
Guest
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2009, 04:01:PM »

Quote from: didishroom
We so need to bring this back.


Amen.

But with catholics in charge, please.
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Hotspur
Guest
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2009, 04:10:PM »

Can't really call this heresy, since no dogma pertaining to Catholicism is being rejected. I can see why he's spouting off such angry rhetoric though, but he needs to get better historical sources.
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columba
Member

Posts: 833


« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2009, 04:18:PM »

Quote from: Cambrensis
Pope Benedict should affirmatively declare Holocaust denial to be heresy
Great shyster legal strategy, especially since the concept of "Holocaust denial" is loosely defined and elastic. That way any Catholic institution accused of culpability in the Holocaust would be forbidden to defend itself. Perfect for bringing on an avalanche of "survivor" lawsuits against Church!
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