Anastasia
i > u
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« Reply #60 on: February 25, 2009, 04:10:PM » |
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Certainly no one is obliged to believe Jesus had a certain hairstyle, but the majority of the evidence would seem to point towards to shoulder length and beard version. The Shroud, the veil, and the apparations are not part of the Faith as such, but it is reasonable that they should still take precedence over 2nd century paintings. The paintings also are not part of the Faith, so we are not obliged to believe they are accurate, either. |
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People talk vaguely about the innocence of a little child, but they take mighty good care not to let it out of their sight for twenty minutes.-Saki.
"Meanwhile, Fate was quietly slipping lead into the boxing glove. "
— P.G. Wodehouse
The Modernist's Prayer by R.A. Knox
O God, forasmuch as without Thee
We are not enabled to doubt Thee,
Help us all by Thy Grace
To convince the whole race
It knows nothing whatever about Thee.
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didishroom
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Location: North Jersey(Yes Central and South Jersey are something different)
Personality type: Sanguine/Melancholic
Posts: 4,667
Guten Morgen!
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« Reply #61 on: February 25, 2009, 04:13:PM » |
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This goes back to my questions as to what is required for one to be a Traditional Catholic.
For you, is belief in the Shroud's authenticity and belief in St. Christopher's existence, necessary requirements for one to be a Trad?
Like I said before, it is not an official club or anthing with official rules and requirements. My point is that to just dismiss something because we are not bound to believe it, to be something of a modern attitude(not modernist. I'm accusing no one here of heresy, so save your breath) and not a traditional one. I'm not saying a traditional Catholic should or necessarily would believe all those things; but if they didn't they would have a real answer based on evidence. Unless there is a real specific reason not to believe, I think Catholics should just take what has been approved by the Church for over a millenia to be authentic. |
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"We're from Jersey. Not New Jersey, just Jersey. We curse a lot. We say "yo" and we say it often. We sure as hell don't pump our own gas. We know what real pizza tastes like and we know that a bagel is much more than a roll wit a hole in the middle. We judge people by what exit they are off the parkway or by what mall they live closest to. We drive SUVs and we tailgate any chance we get. All good nights must end in a diner, preferably with cheese fries. It's a sub, not a hoagie or a hero. and I wash it down with soda, not pop. I have a dawg, and I drink cawfee. ..and New York City, is "the city." We know 65 mph means 80 mph."-Anon
Foolish then, is he who departs from the Vicar of Christ Crucified, who has the keys of the Blood, or who goes against him . . . Even though the pope were satan incarnate himself, I may not lift up my head against him, but I must always humble myself, and beg for the Blood as a mercy, for in no other wise can I obtain a part of it -St. Catherine of Sienna.
If desire has equal power with actual Baptism, you would then be satisfied to desire Glory, as though that longing itself were Glory!-St. Gregory Nazianzen.
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didishroom
Member
Gender:
Location: North Jersey(Yes Central and South Jersey are something different)
Personality type: Sanguine/Melancholic
Posts: 4,667
Guten Morgen!
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« Reply #62 on: February 25, 2009, 04:14:PM » |
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No matter what your opinion of JPII his words stand as the official position of the Church towards the Shroud, unless you can show a more recent statement that says otherwise. I wasn't talking about my opinions, but an inconsistency in yours. Like I said, I don't have my books with me. If you want we can continue the Shroud on another thread at another time. |
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"We're from Jersey. Not New Jersey, just Jersey. We curse a lot. We say "yo" and we say it often. We sure as hell don't pump our own gas. We know what real pizza tastes like and we know that a bagel is much more than a roll wit a hole in the middle. We judge people by what exit they are off the parkway or by what mall they live closest to. We drive SUVs and we tailgate any chance we get. All good nights must end in a diner, preferably with cheese fries. It's a sub, not a hoagie or a hero. and I wash it down with soda, not pop. I have a dawg, and I drink cawfee. ..and New York City, is "the city." We know 65 mph means 80 mph."-Anon
Foolish then, is he who departs from the Vicar of Christ Crucified, who has the keys of the Blood, or who goes against him . . . Even though the pope were satan incarnate himself, I may not lift up my head against him, but I must always humble myself, and beg for the Blood as a mercy, for in no other wise can I obtain a part of it -St. Catherine of Sienna.
If desire has equal power with actual Baptism, you would then be satisfied to desire Glory, as though that longing itself were Glory!-St. Gregory Nazianzen.
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StevusMagnus
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« Reply #63 on: February 25, 2009, 04:15:PM » |
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Certainly no one is obliged to believe Jesus had a certain hairstyle, but the majority of the evidence would seem to point towards to shoulder length and beard version. The Shroud, the veil, and the apparations are not part of the Faith as such, but it is reasonable that they should still take precedence over 2nd century paintings. The paintings also are not part of the Faith, so we are not obliged to believe they are accurate, either. We are not obliged to believe any depiction is more accurate than the other. However, I would argue that a shroud with it's origins in question and private apparitions centuries later do not necessarily take precedence over depictions of Christ by Christians in the 2nd century with access to the Apostles. |
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StevusMagnus
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« Reply #64 on: February 25, 2009, 04:18:PM » |
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I'm not saying a traditional Catholic should or necessarily would believe all those things; but if they didn't they would have a real answer based on evidence. Unless there is a real specific reason not to believe, I think Catholics should just take what has been approved by the Church for over a millenia to be authentic. I pointed out an answer based on evidence. Did you not read it? There are scientific reasons to doubt the Shroud's authenticity. I've also pointed out that the Church has not taken a position one way or the other as to the authenticity of the Shroud, but has left it up to science. If you believe the Shroud's authenticity then fine, but others are no less "Trad" than you (by your own admission) if they do not. |
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Anastasia
i > u
Blue Fish
Gender:
Personality type: choleric/melancholic
Posts: 3,215
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« Reply #65 on: February 25, 2009, 04:19:PM » |
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OK, but access to the apostles, which we can't be sure of either, would still be second hand knowledge. The apparitions, which we are also unsure of, are first hand knowledge. I'm making the argument that neither group is certain knowledge, but at least the apparitions are closer experiences of what Christ looked like. |
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People talk vaguely about the innocence of a little child, but they take mighty good care not to let it out of their sight for twenty minutes.-Saki.
"Meanwhile, Fate was quietly slipping lead into the boxing glove. "
— P.G. Wodehouse
The Modernist's Prayer by R.A. Knox
O God, forasmuch as without Thee
We are not enabled to doubt Thee,
Help us all by Thy Grace
To convince the whole race
It knows nothing whatever about Thee.
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StevusMagnus
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« Reply #66 on: February 25, 2009, 04:20:PM » |
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No matter what your opinion of JPII his words stand as the official position of the Church towards the Shroud, unless you can show a more recent statement that says otherwise. I wasn't talking about my opinions, but an inconsistency in yours. Like I said, I don't have my books with me. If you want we can continue the Shroud on another thread at another time. There is no inconsistency. JPII is saying this is a scientific question and the Church isn't taking a position on it. That's simply a fact. |
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StevusMagnus
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« Reply #67 on: February 25, 2009, 04:24:PM » |
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OK, but access to the apostles, which we can't be sure of either, would still be second hand knowledge. The apparitions, which we are also unsure of, are first hand knowledge. I'm making the argument that neither group is certain knowledge, but at least the apparitions are closer experiences of what Christ looked like. Christ can appear to individuals under different appearances through time. Perhaps how that individual has been conditioned to envision Him so that they would recognize Him. Out of curiosity, which apparition of Christ told the visionary that He hads long hair and a beard and that this was a fact? On the other hand we have an early Christian in Rome, where both Peter and Paul lived at one time, with acess to people who SAW Christ and they drew Him with short hair and beardless. At the least, I would say that on the level of evidence, apparitions do not take precedence over 2nd century depictions drawn by those with access to eyewitnesses or who could have been eyewitnesses themselves. |
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SaintSebastian
E chiamamulu paisanu!
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Primu a Diu e Sammastianu!
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« Reply #68 on: February 25, 2009, 04:28:PM » |
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The prophecies of Isaiah which have pretty unanimously been held to refer to Christ mention His beard being plucked during His Passion. See Isa. 50:6. |
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didishroom
Member
Gender:
Location: North Jersey(Yes Central and South Jersey are something different)
Personality type: Sanguine/Melancholic
Posts: 4,667
Guten Morgen!
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« Reply #69 on: February 25, 2009, 04:29:PM » |
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On the other hand we have an early Christian in Rome, where both Peter and Paul lived at one time, with acess to people who SAW Christ and they drew Him with short hair and beardless. Those images, while closest in time to Christ are still too far removed to be accurate at all. The fact that Jesus is also wearing Roman clothing should show that they just adapted Him to their own contemporary style and fashion. |
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"We're from Jersey. Not New Jersey, just Jersey. We curse a lot. We say "yo" and we say it often. We sure as hell don't pump our own gas. We know what real pizza tastes like and we know that a bagel is much more than a roll wit a hole in the middle. We judge people by what exit they are off the parkway or by what mall they live closest to. We drive SUVs and we tailgate any chance we get. All good nights must end in a diner, preferably with cheese fries. It's a sub, not a hoagie or a hero. and I wash it down with soda, not pop. I have a dawg, and I drink cawfee. ..and New York City, is "the city." We know 65 mph means 80 mph."-Anon
Foolish then, is he who departs from the Vicar of Christ Crucified, who has the keys of the Blood, or who goes against him . . . Even though the pope were satan incarnate himself, I may not lift up my head against him, but I must always humble myself, and beg for the Blood as a mercy, for in no other wise can I obtain a part of it -St. Catherine of Sienna.
If desire has equal power with actual Baptism, you would then be satisfied to desire Glory, as though that longing itself were Glory!-St. Gregory Nazianzen.
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