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Author Topic: Question on Obedience  (Read 3409 times)
CarmeliteAtHeart
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Location: PA USA
Personality type: Melancholic with a twist of lime
Posts: 397



« Reply #50 on: April 21, 2009, 03:43:PM »

So then why do some "traditionalists" feel free to throw the accusation around so freely? That is sad and scary.

Pax Christi tecum.

Well, some m0dernists also have such beliefs (although they don't say "heretic" they say "old fashioned" or whatever).

That was the who point of my initial posts in this thread, the rejection of the authority of the Church by those who claim to teach the Church's true teachings.

Right. Which raises the question, which authority are we to follow? Obedience is an important virtue. I'm not saying we ought to obey an unjust law but it raises the question. I think some take that idea of not having to follow an unjust law too far.

Pax Christi tecum.
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"Look, I have Jesus in my heart, I want to bring many others to Jesus. Here is the apostle of Divine Love, Jesus give me your light throughout my long way."
The words of Our Lady to Rosario at Belpasso Italy.
Rosarium
Guest
« Reply #51 on: April 21, 2009, 03:46:PM »

Right. Which raises the question, which authority are we to follow? Obedience is an important virtue. I'm not saying we ought to obey an unjust law but it raises the question. I think some take that idea of not having to follow an unjust law too far.

Pax Christi tecum.

The Church's first. There is nothing which we are bound to follow by the Church which is wrong.
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INPEFESS
Please remember me in your rosary intentions.
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Gender: Male
Personality type: Mostly melancholic
Posts: 10,836


† "If anyone love Me, he will keep My word." †


« Reply #52 on: April 21, 2009, 05:27:PM »

So then why do some "traditionalists" feel free to throw the accusation around so freely? That is sad and scary.

Pax Christi tecum.

Well, some m0dernists also have such beliefs (although they don't say "heretic" they say "old fashioned" or whatever).

That was the who point of my initial posts in this thread, the rejection of the authority of the Church by those who claim to teach the Church's true teachings.

Right. Which raises the question, which authority are we to follow? Obedience is an important virtue. I'm not saying we ought to obey an unjust law but it raises the question. I think some take that idea of not having to follow an unjust law too far.

Pax Christi tecum.

This intra-ecclesiastical crisis demands a true understanding of the nature of obedience. It is the righteous employment of this virtue alone that can answer for us at the judgment seat of God. God, Our Heavenly Father does not require all of us to be theologians; He has not made us all to be capable of understanding the complexities and intricacies of this crisis. If one has not been gifted with the intelligence to comprehend the theological premises under discussion, he would not be held accountable for such innocent ignorance. It is our pride which leads us into thinking that Objective Truth can be discerned this way. The Holy Fathers themselves, in defining the Dogmas over which we quibble, relied upon the Holy Ghost for Wisdom, Counsel, and Understanding. There is a way to know truth from error without even having the gift of language. The truly humble are the only ones who can find this way; they are the ones who will find the answer without even looking for it. Strive for this virtue, rather than knowledge, and the answer will be made clear. God be with us all...
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I  n
N omine
P atris,
E t
F ilii,
E t
S piritus
S ancti

"The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative magisterium" (Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum, no.  9, June 29, 1896).

“Wherefore, brethren, labour the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election. For doing these things, you shall not sin at any time” (2 Peter 1:10).

Iuvenalis
Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!
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Sacred Heart of Jesus, I trust in Thee!


« Reply #53 on: April 22, 2009, 12:40:AM »

I think INPEFESS is a sock puppet for Rosarium, or vice versa.

I need to hire a linguist, because the diction, structure, etc are interestingly similar. Anyway, that's off topic.

I've 'asked' this question several times of 'uber'-Trads, SSPX-ers, etc exactly what CarmeliteAtHeart is getting at, namely that it's really weird to say one is the epitome of the 'old' way of doing things, then denounce and disobey the Pope like some kinda quasi-Prot neo-'Catholic.'
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"It is questionable whether the proper functions of Catholics is to hunt down, "expose" and condemn Catholics they suspect of undue rigidity, disobedience or "material schism"; especially while giving support to a Vatican ecumenical campaign which addresses heretics and actual Schismatics as "separated brethren", Jews as "people of the covenant" and Muslims as "people of God". This is part of the overall contradiction (or inconsistency) that permeates the "conservative" mentality. Cloaked in a pledged loyalty to all things "whatsoever" emanating from the Holy See, many "conservatives" will go beyond the measures taken by the Church leaders, or even disagree with their actual positions. The Hawaii "excommunications" were an obvious example but others can be seen. "Conservatives" denounce as "Schismatic" all those who set foot in SSPX chapels while the Vatican embraces the Schismatics in China. "Conservatives" deny any significant change at the Second Vatican Council while the Pope celebrates the enormity and impact of the changes. "Conservatives" seek the conversion of the Eastern "Orthodox" while the Vatican promises not to "proselytize" them. "Conservatives" deride American bishops while the Pope appoints and promotes the same ones." -Peter Miller


"Tolerance is the last virtue of a depraved society When an immoral society has blatantly and proudly violated all the commandments, it insists upon one last virtue, tolerance for its immorality. It will not tolerate condemnation of its perversions. It creates a whole new world in which only the intolerant critic of intolerable evil is evil." -H. Gibson

(5 x 10 x 17) x (5 x 10 x 17) ≠ 722,500
INPEFESS
Please remember me in your rosary intentions.
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Personality type: Mostly melancholic
Posts: 10,836


† "If anyone love Me, he will keep My word." †


« Reply #54 on: April 22, 2009, 04:46:AM »

Can't figure out how to delete.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2009, 12:19:PM by INPEFESS » Logged

I  n
N omine
P atris,
E t
F ilii,
E t
S piritus
S ancti

"The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative magisterium" (Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum, no.  9, June 29, 1896).

“Wherefore, brethren, labour the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election. For doing these things, you shall not sin at any time” (2 Peter 1:10).



Rosarium
Guest
« Reply #55 on: April 22, 2009, 02:51:PM »

Can't figure out how to delete.

By editing the content of the post Smile

I didn't see a problem with what I saw there before though.

Hm...sock puppets helping the puppeteer? (Or vice versa)
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INPEFESS
Please remember me in your rosary intentions.
Member

Gender: Male
Personality type: Mostly melancholic
Posts: 10,836


† "If anyone love Me, he will keep My word." †


« Reply #56 on: April 22, 2009, 07:22:PM »

Can't figure out how to delete.

By editing the content of the post Smile

I didn't see a problem with what I saw there before though.

Hm...sock puppets helping the puppeteer? (Or vice versa)

No, there was a problem with what I said. I completely misunderstood Iuvenalis' post, and I owe him an apology for replying without actually knowing what he was saying. I understand what he meant now.

Reason number ____ why I shouldn't be Pope. I should start a thread and see how many reasons everyone can come up with! Anyone who's talked with me would have at least one. ;)
« Last Edit: April 22, 2009, 07:23:PM by INPEFESS » Logged

I  n
N omine
P atris,
E t
F ilii,
E t
S piritus
S ancti

"The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative magisterium" (Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum, no.  9, June 29, 1896).

“Wherefore, brethren, labour the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election. For doing these things, you shall not sin at any time” (2 Peter 1:10).

INPEFESS
Please remember me in your rosary intentions.
Member

Gender: Male
Personality type: Mostly melancholic
Posts: 10,836


† "If anyone love Me, he will keep My word." †


« Reply #57 on: April 23, 2009, 01:00:PM »

Can't figure out how to delete.

By editing the content of the post Smile

I didn't see a problem with what I saw there before though.

Hm...sock puppets helping the puppeteer? (Or vice versa)

No, there was a problem with what I said. I completely misunderstood Iuvenalis' post, and I owe him an apology for replying without actually knowing what he was saying. I understand what he meant now.

Reason number ____ why I shouldn't be Pope. I should start a thread and see how many reasons everyone can come up with! Anyone who's talked with me would have at least one. ;)

...so Iuvenalis, I apologize for not understanding your post before replying. I have deleted it ... more or less.  ;)
Logged

I  n
N omine
P atris,
E t
F ilii,
E t
S piritus
S ancti

"The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative magisterium" (Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum, no.  9, June 29, 1896).

“Wherefore, brethren, labour the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election. For doing these things, you shall not sin at any time” (2 Peter 1:10).

lumine
Member

Posts: 392



« Reply #58 on: June 01, 2009, 08:16:AM »

It seems that I can't reply by clicking on individual posts, so here is what I am thinking:

When it comes to recognizing authority in the Church, the Pope is the ultimate authority in matters of doctrine and jurisdiction.

From the Gospel of Matthew, I am sure that you all know this one by heart, chapter 16:
18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.


From the first and second chapter of session 4 of the First Vatican Council:
Chapter 1
On the institution of the apostolic primacy in blessed Peter

1. We teach and declare that, according to the gospel evidence, a primacy of jurisdiction over the whole Church of God was immediately and directly promised to the blessed apostle Peter and conferred on him by Christ the lord.

2. It was to Simon alone, to whom he had already said You shall be called Cephas [42], that the Lord, after his confession, You are the Christ, the son of the living God, spoke these words:

Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of the underworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven [43] .

3. And it was to Peter alone that Jesus, after his resurrection, confided the jurisdiction of Supreme Pastor and ruler of his whole fold, saying:
Feed my lambs, feed my sheep [44].

4. To this absolutely manifest teaching of the Sacred Scriptures, as it has always been understood by the Catholic Church, are clearly opposed the distorted opinions of those who misrepresent the form of government which Christ the lord established in his Church and deny that Peter, in preference to the rest of the apostles, taken singly or collectively, was endowed by Christ with a true and proper primacy of jurisdiction.

5. The same may be said of those who assert that this primacy was not conferred immediately and directly on blessed Peter himself, but rather on the Church, and that it was through the Church that it was transmitted to him in his capacity as her minister.

6. Therefore, if anyone says that blessed Peter the apostle was not appointed by Christ the lord as prince of all the apostles and visible head of the whole Church militant; or that it was a primacy of honor only and not one of true and proper jurisdiction that he directly and immediately received from our lord Jesus Christ himself: let him be anathema.

Chapter 2.
On the permanence of the primacy of blessed Peter in the Roman pontiffs

1. That which our lord Jesus Christ, the prince of shepherds and great shepherd of the sheep, established in the blessed apostle Peter, for the continual salvation and permanent benefit of the Church, must of necessity remain for ever, by Christ's authority, in the Church which, founded as it is upon a rock, will stand firm until the end of time [45].

2. For no one can be in doubt, indeed it was known in every age that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the apostles, the pillar of faith and the foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our lord Jesus Christ, the savior and redeemer of the human race, and that to this day and for ever he lives and presides and exercises judgment in his successors the bishops of the Holy Roman See, which he founded and consecrated with his blood [46].

3. Therefore whoever succeeds to the chair of Peter obtains by the institution of Christ himself, the primacy of Peter over the whole Church. So what the truth has ordained stands firm, and blessed Peter perseveres in the rock-like strength he was granted, and does not abandon that guidance of the Church which he once received [47].

4. For this reason it has always been necessary for every Church--that is to say the faithful throughout the world--to be in agreement with the Roman Church because of its more effective leadership. In consequence of being joined, as members to head, with that see, from which the rights of sacred communion flow to all, they will grow together into the structure of a single body [48].

5. Therefore, if anyone says that it is not by the institution of Christ the lord himself (that is to say, by divine law) that blessed Peter should have perpetual successors in the primacy over the whole Church; or that the Roman Pontiff is not the successor of blessed Peter in this primacy: let him be anathema.


And from chapter 3:
Chapter 3.
On the power and character of the primacy of the Roman Pontiff

1. And so, supported by the clear witness of Holy Scripture, and adhering to the manifest and explicit decrees both of our predecessors the Roman Pontiffs and of general councils, we promulgate anew the definition of the ecumenical Council of Florence [49], which must be believed by all faithful Christians, namely that the Apostolic See and the Roman Pontiff hold a world-wide primacy, and that the Roman Pontiff is the successor of blessed Peter, the prince of the apostles, true vicar of Christ, head of the whole Church and father and teacher of all Christian people.

To him, in blessed Peter, full power has been given by our lord Jesus Christ to tend, rule and govern the universal Church.

All this is to be found in the acts of the ecumenical councils and the sacred canons.

2. Wherefore we teach and declare that, by divine ordinance, the Roman Church possesses a pre-eminence of ordinary power over every other Church, and that this jurisdictional power of the Roman Pontiff is both episcopal and immediate. Both clergy and faithful, of whatever rite and dignity, both singly and collectively, are bound to submit to this power by the duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience, and this not only in matters concerning faith and morals, but also in those which regard the discipline and government of the Church throughout the world.


I know that many people will say that obedience to the Faith comes before obedience to the Pope, however the Popes that Archbishop Lefebvre and the men that he consecrated as bishops were disobedient to, did not try to make these men act in disobedience to the Faith.

So, have at it, start clicking on that "stinking" button!
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Tiny
Member

Posts: 227


« Reply #59 on: June 01, 2009, 09:16:AM »

I know that many people will say that obedience to the Faith comes before obedience to the Pope, however the Popes that Archbishop Lefebvre and the men that he consecrated as bishops were disobedient to, did not try to make these men act in disobedience to the Faith.

If we examine the issue solely from the point of view of the Motu Proprio SP, the 1962 books were never officially abrogated; this of course confirms the findings of a commission of cardinals in the 1980s.  Technically the SSPX were trying to uphold the rights of priests and the faithful; though rather than filing a canonical appeal (which would have been crushed by bias) they had to act outside of the hierarchical structure.
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The 5 Last Things
1. Death
2. History Examination
3. Judgement
4. Heaven
5. Hell
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 [6] 7
 
 
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