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Rosarium
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« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2009, 10:51:AM » |
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More  as this has been sufficiently shown that the need existed and B16 has agreed in principle (as B16 not as Card. Ratzinger) these bishops are not attempting to run a diocese so they have not over reached their bounds. It is all thoroughly documented. They have taken over buildings before... I'm not saying the are wrong or right, but they are not totally in the Church's structure. |
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markadm
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« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2009, 12:51:PM » |
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There has been extensive study of their position and they have all the right they need to opperate as they do, but no more, and they are not seeking, nor have they ever attempted more. They're just working and waiting out the storm. Would you like to refer us to these extensive studies? I should note the author of what you describe as 'blah blah blah' is none other than the Supreme Legislator of the Church, the Holy Father. They do not have faculty. Period. |
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Melkite
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« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2009, 03:00:PM » |
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An episcopal ordination lacking a pontifical mandate raises the danger of a schism, since it jeopardizes the unity of the College of Bishops with the Pope. Consequently the Church must react by employing her most severe punishment – excommunication – with the aim of calling those thus punished to repent and to return to unity. Twenty years after the ordinations, this goal has sadly not yet been attained. The remission of the excommunication has the same aim as that of the punishment: namely, to invite the four Bishops once more to return
Why can't it be something like the situation with the Eastern Catholic Churches? Within the respective churches, bishops are regularly ordained without a papal mandate. The approval of Rome is assumed. Why would there have to be a danger of schism in the West for the same thing? That is, why can't it be assumed that a bishop is ordained with papal approval unless the Pope explicitly states otherwise? |
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didishroom
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« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2009, 03:01:PM » |
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That was just it. He was explciitly warned NOT to ordain those bishops and that they would all be automatically excommunicated if he did.
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"We're from Jersey. Not New Jersey, just Jersey. We curse a lot. We say "yo" and we say it often. We sure as hell don't pump our own gas. We know what real pizza tastes like and we know that a bagel is much more than a roll wit a hole in the middle. We judge people by what exit they are off the parkway or by what mall they live closest to. We drive SUVs and we tailgate any chance we get. All good nights must end in a diner, preferably with cheese fries. It's a sub, not a hoagie or a hero. and I wash it down with soda, not pop. I have a dawg, and I drink cawfee. ..and New York City, is "the city." We know 65 mph means 80 mph."-Anon
Foolish then, is he who departs from the Vicar of Christ Crucified, who has the keys of the Blood, or who goes against him . . . Even though the pope were satan incarnate himself, I may not lift up my head against him, but I must always humble myself, and beg for the Blood as a mercy, for in no other wise can I obtain a part of it -St. Catherine of Sienna.
If desire has equal power with actual Baptism, you would then be satisfied to desire Glory, as though that longing itself were Glory!-St. Gregory Nazianzen.
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Fortunatus
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« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2009, 04:18:PM » |
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Why can't it be something like the situation with the Eastern Catholic Churches? Within the respective churches, bishops are regularly ordained without a papal mandate. A papal mandate is required in Eastren Catholic Churches, too. Please read CCEO, canon 182 para 3. |
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Christus Rex Perpetuus
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Melkite
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« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2009, 05:35:PM » |
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Why can't it be something like the situation with the Eastern Catholic Churches? Within the respective churches, bishops are regularly ordained without a papal mandate. A papal mandate is required in Eastren Catholic Churches, too. Please read CCEO, canon 182 para 3. Look at the first part of the sentence, "Unless particular law approved by the Roman Pontiff states otherwise," I don't know which individual churches this applies to, but I know in general, and what is spoken of in this canon, the practice is that the patriarch or the synond of bishops picks a few names and sends them over to Rome to make sure the Pope has no objections. But the Pope isn't mandating a particular candidate or the erection of a particular eparchy. That has already been decided by the head of the respective Church. It is only sent to the Pope to make sure he has no objections. |
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Joan of Arc
http://lbdf.lilypie.com/93MRm8
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« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2009, 07:33:PM » |
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An episcopal ordination lacking a pontifical mandate raises the danger of a schism, since it jeopardizes the unity of the College of Bishops with the Pope. Consequently the Church must react by employing her most severe punishment – excommunication – with the aim of calling those thus punished to repent and to return to unity. Twenty years after the ordinations, this goal has sadly not yet been attained. The remission of the excommunication has the same aim as that of the punishment: namely, to invite the four Bishops once more to return
As long as the Society does not have a canonical status in the Church, its ministers do not exercise legitimate ministries in the Church.
In order to make this clear once again: until the doctrinal questions are clarified, the Society has no canonical status in the Church, and its ministers – even though they have been freed of the ecclesiastical penalty – do not legitimately exercise any ministry in the Church
More as this has been sufficiently shown that the need existed and B16 has agreed in principle (as B16 not as Card. Ratzinger) these bishops are not attempting to run a diocese so they have not over reached their bounds. It is all thoroughly documented. Scipio is 100% correct They have never sought an apostolic mission, nor was one mandated to them by Archbishop Lefebvre. They were consecrated to ordain priests and to confirm the faithful. Your argument is specious Didishroom |
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« Last Edit: May 24, 2009, 07:35:PM by Joan of Arc »
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Joan of Arc leading her troops in battle:
"In God's name, forward boldly!"
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didishroom
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Guten Morgen!
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« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2009, 07:35:PM » |
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Ordaining priests is exclusively an episcopal ministry. And if they claim no jurisdiction then neither can their priests, which also means they can't validly perform marriages or hear confessions.
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"We're from Jersey. Not New Jersey, just Jersey. We curse a lot. We say "yo" and we say it often. We sure as hell don't pump our own gas. We know what real pizza tastes like and we know that a bagel is much more than a roll wit a hole in the middle. We judge people by what exit they are off the parkway or by what mall they live closest to. We drive SUVs and we tailgate any chance we get. All good nights must end in a diner, preferably with cheese fries. It's a sub, not a hoagie or a hero. and I wash it down with soda, not pop. I have a dawg, and I drink cawfee. ..and New York City, is "the city." We know 65 mph means 80 mph."-Anon
Foolish then, is he who departs from the Vicar of Christ Crucified, who has the keys of the Blood, or who goes against him . . . Even though the pope were satan incarnate himself, I may not lift up my head against him, but I must always humble myself, and beg for the Blood as a mercy, for in no other wise can I obtain a part of it -St. Catherine of Sienna.
If desire has equal power with actual Baptism, you would then be satisfied to desire Glory, as though that longing itself were Glory!-St. Gregory Nazianzen.
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Joan of Arc
http://lbdf.lilypie.com/93MRm8
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« Reply #18 on: May 24, 2009, 07:43:PM » |
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Ordaining priests is exclusively an episcopal ministry. And if they claim no jurisdiction then neither can their priests, which also means they can't validly perform marriages or hear confessions.
\\ To quote Scipio May I also add  Read about supplied jurisdiction, Didishroom. Then we can line up our respective Canon Lawyers and duke it out  Also before anyone gets into the schism nonsense: A passage from The SSPX website: Consecrating a bishop without pontifical mandate would be a schismatic act if one pretended to confer not just the fullness of the priesthood but also jurisdiction, a governing power over a particular flock. Only the pope, who has universal jurisdiction over the whole Church, can appoint a pastor to a flock and empower him to govern it. But Archbishop Lefebvre never presumed to confer anything but the full priestly powers of holy orders, and in no way did he grant any jurisdiction (which he himself did not have personally to give) Were talking about supplied, not ordinary jursidiction |
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« Last Edit: May 24, 2009, 10:34:PM by Joan of Arc »
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Joan of Arc leading her troops in battle:
"In God's name, forward boldly!"
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didishroom
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Personality type: Sanguine/Melancholic
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Guten Morgen!
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« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2009, 07:57:PM » |
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"We're from Jersey. Not New Jersey, just Jersey. We curse a lot. We say "yo" and we say it often. We sure as hell don't pump our own gas. We know what real pizza tastes like and we know that a bagel is much more than a roll wit a hole in the middle. We judge people by what exit they are off the parkway or by what mall they live closest to. We drive SUVs and we tailgate any chance we get. All good nights must end in a diner, preferably with cheese fries. It's a sub, not a hoagie or a hero. and I wash it down with soda, not pop. I have a dawg, and I drink cawfee. ..and New York City, is "the city." We know 65 mph means 80 mph."-Anon
Foolish then, is he who departs from the Vicar of Christ Crucified, who has the keys of the Blood, or who goes against him . . . Even though the pope were satan incarnate himself, I may not lift up my head against him, but I must always humble myself, and beg for the Blood as a mercy, for in no other wise can I obtain a part of it -St. Catherine of Sienna.
If desire has equal power with actual Baptism, you would then be satisfied to desire Glory, as though that longing itself were Glory!-St. Gregory Nazianzen.
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