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Author Topic: Where Jesus was before He was born  (Read 1543 times)
QuisUtDeus
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« Reply #30 on: June 05, 2009, 03:34:AM »


The greatest saints were unable to fully understand the Trinity, even when given great revelations. If the saints have written about the impossibility of earthly comprehension, this forum is doomed to try.

Since when has that ever stopped anything on this forum?  ;D

Eh, you beat me to it.  LOL
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QuisUtDeus
Guest
« Reply #31 on: June 05, 2009, 03:43:AM »

I can symapthize with Anthem here. I've always been fascinated by "through Him all things were made", as if Christ is the Person of the Trinity directly linked - in some particular way - to created things, even before the Word was made flesh. Maybe all of creation is in some ungraspable way the Word taking concrete form, even before He took the form of man. Is this borderline heresy? To me it makes sense in some intuitive way, and doesn't contradict John's prologue or anything I can think of. Even understanding the Trinity will be cause enough for eternal joy and wonde if we make it to Heaven!

This should help make it as clear as mud, especially Objection 2 and the answer:

Quote
Article 6. Whether to create is proper to any person?

Objection 1. It would seem that to create is proper to some Person. For what comes first is the cause of what is after; and what is perfect is the cause of what is imperfect. But the procession of the divine Person is prior to the procession of the creature: and is more perfect, because the divine Person proceeds in perfect similitude of its principle; whereas the creature proceeds in imperfect similitude. Therefore the processions of the divine Persons are the cause of the processions of things, and so to create belongs to a Person.

Objection 2. Further, the divine Persons are distinguished from each other only by their processions and relations. Therefore whatever difference is attributed to the divine Persons belongs to them according to the processions and relations of the Persons. But the causation of creatures is diversely attributed to the divine Persons; for in the Creed, to the Father is attributed that "He is the Creator of all things visible and invisible"; to the Son is attributed that by Him "all things were made"; and to the Holy Ghost is attributed that He is "Lord and Life-giver." Therefore the causation of creatures belongs to the Persons according to processions and relations.

Objection 3. Further, if it be said that the causation of the creature flows from some essential attribute appropriated to some one Person, this does not appear to be sufficient; because every divine effect is caused by every essential attribute--viz. by power, goodness and wisdom--and thus does not belong to one more than to another. Therefore any determinate mode of causation ought not to be attributed to one Person more than to another, unless they are distinguished in creating according to relations and processions.

On the contrary, Dionysius says (Div. Nom. ii) that all things caused are the common work of the whole Godhead.

I answer that, To create is, properly speaking, to cause or produce the being of things. And as every agent produces its like, the principle of action can be considered from the effect of the action; for it must be fire that generates fire. And therefore to create belongs to God according to His being, that is, His essence, which is common to the three Persons. Hence to create is not proper to any one Person, but is common to the whole Trinity.

Nevertheless the divine Persons, according to the nature of their procession, have a causality respecting the creation of things. For as was said above (14, 8; 19, 4), when treating of the knowledge and will of God, God is the cause of things by His intellect and will, just as the craftsman is cause of the things made by his craft. Now the craftsman works through the word conceived in his mind, and through the love of his will regarding some object. Hence also God the Father made the creature through His Word, which is His Son; and through His Love, which is the Holy Ghost. And so the processions of the Persons are the type of the productions of creatures inasmuch as they include the essential attributes, knowledge and will.

Reply to Objection 1. The processions of the divine Persons are the cause of creation, as above explained.

Reply to Objection 2. As the divine nature, although common to the three Persons, still belongs to them in a kind of order, inasmuch as the Son receives the divine nature from the Father, and the Holy Ghost from both: so also likewise the power of creation, whilst common to the three Persons, belongs to them in a kind of order. For the Son receives it from the Father, and the Holy Ghost from both. Hence to be the Creator is attributed to the Father as to Him Who does not receive the power of creation from another. And of the Son it is said (John 1:3), "Through Him all things were made," inasmuch as He has the same power, but from another; for this preposition "through" usually denotes amediate cause, or "a principle from a principle." But to the Holy Ghost, Who has the same power from both, is attributed that by His sway He governs, and quickens what is created by the Father through the Son. Again, the reason for this particular appropriation may be taken from the common notion of the appropriation of the essential attributes. For, as above stated (39, 8, ad 3), to the Father is appropriated power which is chiefly shown in creation, and therefore it is attributed to Him to be the Creator. To the Son is appropriated wisdom, through which the intellectual agent acts; and therefore it is said: "Through Whom all things were made." And to the Holy Ghost is appropriated goodness, to which belong both government, which brings things to their proper end, and the giving of life--for life consists in a certain interior movement; and the first mover is the end, and goodness.

Reply to Objection 3. Although every effect of God proceeds from each attribute, each effect is reduced to that attribute with which it is naturally connected; thus the order of things is reduced to "wisdom," and the justification of the sinner to "mercy" and "goodness" poured out super-abundantly. But creation, which is the production of the very substance of a thing, is reduced to "power."
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Benno
Member

Location: Oz
Personality type: All 4 supposedly
Posts: 1,236



« Reply #32 on: June 05, 2009, 04:46:AM »

Yeah that's pretty clear.  Smile Better to just wait and see how all that "Trinity stuff" works. Some things even Aquinas (believe it or not) can't put into words, because words can't hold it.
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Bruno-Maria Schulz
Member

Posts: 72



« Reply #33 on: June 05, 2009, 05:53:AM »

Maybe all of creation is in some ungraspable way the Word taking concrete form, even before He took the form of man. Is this borderline heresy?

No it's not. We might think hat we might, as long as it's not blasphemy ;D

Let's remember, heaven and Angels where created eternities before men was. Must be, for all we know of Revelation. Much happening there from creating to fall of angels around Satan and creating a place for him and his legions far and unreachable off heaven, can only be thought of in several eternities.


Even understanding the Trinity will be cause enough for eternal joy and wonder if we make it to Heaven!

We will never understand God - the Holy Trinity. Not even Angels never will. A understandable God would be subject to manipulation - which can not be done ever.
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Pilgrim
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Gender: Male
Posts: 3,707



« Reply #34 on: June 05, 2009, 09:43:AM »

Yeah that's pretty clear.  Smile Better to just wait and see how all that "Trinity stuff" works. Some things even Aquinas (believe it or not) can't put into words, because words can't hold it.
"I will write no more.  Compared with what I have seen, all I have written seems like straw."

St. Thomas Aquinas: a great intellectual and a great mystic...  Smile
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"And so, Lord, do you, who do give understanding to faith, give me, so far as you knowest it to be profitable, to understand that you are as we believe; and that you are that which we believe." -- St. Anselm of Canterbury (1033-1109)

"But Christianity preaches an obviously unattractive idea, such as original sin; but when we wait for its results, they are pathos and brotherhood, and a thunder of laughter and pity; for only with original sin we can at once pity the beggar and distrust the king." -- G. K. Chesterton (1874-1936)

"The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist."  Baudelaire and Verbal Kint from The Usual Suspects

"I'm a practicing Catholic; I'm practicing until I get it right." Martin Sheen


spera
I love you...or at least I'm trying to
Member

Gender: Female
Location: Toronto, Canada
Personality type: Melancholic/INFJ
Posts: 591


Militant Optimist


« Reply #35 on: June 05, 2009, 01:35:PM »

I don't ever expect to understand the Holy Trinity, and I really hope the moment when I do doesn't come anytime soon.

I simply never concerned myself with the intellectualizing oft relationship with God until I was approached my Mormons (if you know anything about them you know what I'm talking about) and also when I listened to an .mp3 on the Theology of the Body ( no, it was NOT Christopher West)

Im pretty sure I have the basics, although sometimes I think they are better referred to as the fundamentals as there is nothing basic about them - and they can never be reviewed enough! Someone hit the nail on the head when they said 'how integral is Jesus' body...' that was my question, and I (kind of) have my answer. Thank you.

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“When we allow abortion, we are punishing the women—who must abort their children because their men have run away- and we are punishing the children whose lives are terminated . . . I want us to step back a little bit and say: Why is this woman and this child threatened? Why is this woman threatening to terminate this life? What do we need to do as a society? What are we not doing right now as a society? A part of that answer lies in this House [pointing at the Kenyan Parliament building].”

Wangaari Maathai - Environmentalist, Feminist, Catholic & Nobel Prize Winner

HEALTHY VIEWING FOR YOUR HEART, MIND AND SOUL
FEELING TEMPTED ONLINE?.... Watch these In Case of Emergency!!!
www.familyland.tv
www.ewtn.com
www.saltandlighttv.org
Bruno-Maria Schulz
Member

Posts: 72



« Reply #36 on: June 06, 2009, 06:27:AM »

they said 'how integral is Jesus' body...' that was my question, and I (kind of) have my answer
next question you ought to ask yourself would then be: How integral is by believe in Jesus?!

But remember:  Many do know the scripture fully and they do not believe(e.g. Phariees). Other know little of the Holy Scripture and believe fully. Who is better off?

Believe is not reasonable knowledge, and knowledge is not believe. Believe comes out of other resources. The Grace of God.
Sure one has to know a lot, but other to mathematics; once you believe in God, the rest is given to you. There are lots of Saints, who never owned a Bible nor where particularly educated.
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Bruno-Maria Schulz
Member

Posts: 72



« Reply #37 on: June 06, 2009, 06:30:AM »

sorry, it must be:
How integral is my believe in Jesus?!
not by believe  :(
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spera
I love you...or at least I'm trying to
Member

Gender: Female
Location: Toronto, Canada
Personality type: Melancholic/INFJ
Posts: 591


Militant Optimist


« Reply #38 on: June 06, 2009, 08:03:AM »

To be honest Bruno, I don't know?!

Jesus is my best friend...but someone I don't know very well.

He has embraced me and my life, I have received His precious body and blood (not always with eyes open), and feel sometimes feel like reflecting upon That Great Love is (almost) too much for my mind.

I Love God and He invited me to be his friend through Mary.

But I know nothing about him, about my very Best Friend?Huh??...so I started to think about my best friend...where do you live? I guess I am beginning to get the answer...
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“When we allow abortion, we are punishing the women—who must abort their children because their men have run away- and we are punishing the children whose lives are terminated . . . I want us to step back a little bit and say: Why is this woman and this child threatened? Why is this woman threatening to terminate this life? What do we need to do as a society? What are we not doing right now as a society? A part of that answer lies in this House [pointing at the Kenyan Parliament building].”

Wangaari Maathai - Environmentalist, Feminist, Catholic & Nobel Prize Winner

HEALTHY VIEWING FOR YOUR HEART, MIND AND SOUL
FEELING TEMPTED ONLINE?.... Watch these In Case of Emergency!!!
www.familyland.tv
www.ewtn.com
www.saltandlighttv.org
Bruno-Maria Schulz
Member

Posts: 72



« Reply #39 on: June 06, 2009, 09:33:AM »


Jesus is my best friend...but someone I don't know very well

If you say so out of your deepest soul, as your deepest honesty, then you are already further in real believe than you think :-)

Oh, all of us are tempted by Satan – often even amidst praying: “you really think HE listens?” or our thoughts go other way than our prayer.

No real problem, if we put all these side-thoughts into the hands of God; “see what I (was it really me?) thinks – I want YOU to know all this, I want YOU to have me with all that non-good things, thoughts, temptations”


He has embraced me and my life, I have received His precious body and blood (not always with eyes open), and feel sometimes feel like reflecting upon That Great Love is (almost) too much for my mind

Ha! That goes to all of us! Yes! You comprehended a lot more than many who think they are real good Christians!

I Love God and He invited me to be his friend through Mary

Well; “His friend” would be asking a little too much. A peasant can love the king, but not really be “his friend”. St. Paul said in his letters not he’s a friend of Jesus, but he is a SERVANT of Jesus (match 1Cor 3,5 + 4,1 + 2Cor 6,4 + 11,15 and many others.)

But I know nothing about him

That’s not so! We do know a lot of God. It is given to us to understand (Mt 13,11). Jesus revealed us God to an extend as we can comprehend – more would have been too much according to Joh 16,12: "I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.”


I guess I am beginning to get the answer...

Of course you are, if you ask God for it, for Jesus promised in (among others) 䴀琀 㜀Ⰰ㠀: For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.

This is the glorious and real good news the Gospel – no Jesus gave us! Hallelujah!

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