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Author Topic: Divine Office/Liturgy of the Hours & praying with the family  (Read 2203 times)
Underdog
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« on: June 20, 2009, 07:52:PM »

This is not a subject with which I have any knowledge or experience.  I am interested in an online classical school (homeschool) for my children, and the owner strongly encourages families enrolled in the program to pray the Liturgy of the Hours (he provides a weekly service for a small fee).  I don't have the money for a set of these books and from the little bit of reading I've done they seem extremely difficult to follow.  I'm also under the impression that there is a big difference betw the LOTH and the DO.  As a traditionalist, and a mom to 3 youngins, how would I best be able to incorporate this devotion? (specifically, which version as a traditionalist and is there an online source?  and how pared down so that we aren't overwhelmed?)

Here is a link (I'm not exactly sure how/if this will help y'all to help me) to the school's page about the LOTH: http://classicalliberalarts.com/loth/index.htm

TIA.
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glgas
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« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2009, 09:04:PM »

This is not a subject with which I have any knowledge or experience.  I am interested in an online classical school (homeschool) for my children, and the owner strongly encourages families enrolled in the program to pray the Liturgy of the Hours (he provides a weekly service for a small fee).  I don't have the money for a set of these books and from the little bit of reading I've done they seem extremely difficult to follow.  I'm also under the impression that there is a big difference betw the LOTH and the DO.  As a traditionalist, and a mom to 3 youngins, how would I best be able to incorporate this devotion? (specifically, which version as a traditionalist and is there an online source?  and how pared down so that we aren't overwhelmed?)

Here is a link (I'm not exactly sure how/if this will help y'all to help me) to the school's page about the LOTH: http://classicalliberalarts.com/loth/index.htm

TIA.

There is significant difference between the Liturgy of Hours and the Divine Office.  If you are traditional you recite the Divine Office, that is the Extraordinary form, what the Church prayed for over 1500 years. .

The Official version of the Divine Office is the one what John XXIII modified in 1960, and is in effect since January fist 1961. Some people call it 1962 version, that was the date printing of the English translation.

The full Office (8 different parts: Matins, Lauds, Prima, Tertia, Sexta Nona, Vespers, Completorium) to recite laudly is about 90 minutes daily, over 30 minutes the Matins, the Lauds, Prima, Vespers about 10 minutes each, the Tertia, Sexta, Nona Completorium abot 7 minutes each.

With your family I would recommend to start with  the Completorium before bed, and the Prima before breakfeast. When you are familiar with this two, you may expand it to the Tertia (9 o'clock') Sexta (12 o'clock) and Nona (3 o'clock) Laudes is to be prayed immediatelly after waking up, Vespers before supper. For some reason usually people advise that Lauds and Vespers are the most important, I am not so sure. The Matins is for night or very early morning, I do not believe it is for family. The Matins Lauds and Vespers are the most complicated horas, the rest is easy.

I have a website

http://divinumofficium.com/cgi-bin/horas/officium.pl

 which collects the daily offices for each horas every day. Select first 'all' 'Rubrics 1960' and 'English' options, at the bottom widget, they will be inherited to the following section. Click on the hora you whish to pray, the page comes up.  This will provide bilingual pages: Latin English.  This is a good help at least for learning. Click Help for some getting started info. There is a stand alone offline version, which even ready to read the office after some setup.

If you prefer books for the daily hours the lulu diurnale

http://stores.lulu.com/breviary

provides inexpensive ($14 + $8 shipping) Latin English diurnal, what you can take with you for vacation too.

laszlo
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CollegeCatholic
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« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2009, 09:26:PM »

This is not a subject with which I have any knowledge or experience.  I am interested in an online classical school (homeschool) for my children, and the owner strongly encourages families enrolled in the program to pray the Liturgy of the Hours (he provides a weekly service for a small fee).  I don't have the money for a set of these books and from the little bit of reading I've done they seem extremely difficult to follow.  I'm also under the impression that there is a big difference betw the LOTH and the DO.  As a traditionalist, and a mom to 3 youngins, how would I best be able to incorporate this devotion? (specifically, which version as a traditionalist and is there an online source?  and how pared down so that we aren't overwhelmed?)

Here is a link (I'm not exactly sure how/if this will help y'all to help me) to the school's page about the LOTH: http://classicalliberalarts.com/loth/index.htm

TIA.

Honestly, the LotH is a bit imposing at first, but once you get the hang of it, and follow the ordinary, it's fine.

And, yeah, the Lulu Day Hour Breviary was *just* finished (content-wise) days ago
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Credo
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« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2009, 09:28:PM »

Quote from: Underdog
the owner strongly encourages families enrolled in the program to pray the Liturgy of the Hours

Excellent! One of the reasons the LOTH came into being is because the Church wished to get the Office on the lips of the laity once again. As such you're on the right path with this one. As The General Instruction of The Liturgy of the Hours says (no. 28):

"Finally, it is of great advantage for the family, the domestic sanctuary of the Church, not only to pray together to God but also to celebrate some parts of the liturgy of the hours as occasion offers, in order to enter more deeply into the life of the Church."

On those days I feel called to married life I dream about leading my family in the LOTH. Had I a family, it would be the focal point of our day.  

Quote
(he provides a weekly service for a small fee).

Do you mean he is offering to teach you guys?

Quote
I don't have the money for a set of these books

Then here is what you do until such a time you feel called to enter deeper in the Prayer of the Church/have the means: invest in shorter versions of the Office.

In fact, even if you had you said you possessed the finances to buy one or more full sets of the LOTH, I would strongly encourage you not to buy them just yet. Work up to the full prayer just as a body builder does with weights. You should not jump right into saying the full LOTH. There are seven separate times of prayer throughout the day which vary in their length. For one with no experience with the Office, if you try to say the whole LOTH cold turkey you will burn-out in no time. This will be even truer if you're attempting this with your equally uninitiated family.

Start by praying parts of the Office one by one. I would suggest beginning with Night Prayer (AKA Compline) for a few months. It is the shortest of the Hours, with the least variable parts.

From there I would recommend that you add Morning and Evening Prayer (AKA Lauds and Vespers, respectively). These are commonly called the “hinge Hours” of the Office. These two prayers, generally said at sunrise and sunset, commemorate the sacrifice in the Temple (in addition to other themes). They contain a great deal of the days “flavor.” To use the example of a Sunday, the Antiphons are based off of the Mass reading for the week, and the Collect is the same as at Mass. Without getting into too much detail, for various reasons Morning and Evening Prayer are the two Hours the Church especially wishes us to say. Having hopefully mastered Night Prayer, Morning and Evening Prayer, while not identical, will come much easier to you.

For these first two crucial steps, there is available a volume called Christian Prayer. This book has the full selection of Morning, Evening and Night Prayer for the entire year. I believe it goes for about $20 – 30, much more reasonable than the $140 for the full LOTH.

The full LOTH contains the Office of Readings and the Daytime Prayers, but we’ll save consideration of those for another day. For at least the first two years Morning, Evening and Night Prayer will keep your plate full.

At any length, look up Christian Prayer on Amazon or get a few copies through your local book sellers.

If you’re really tight for money there is an even more condensed version of the LOTH called Shorter Christian Prayer. This edition, the one I first learned the Office on incidentally, has Morning and Evening Prayer for the Feria (“regular”) days in Ordinary Time, as well as the full complement of Night Prayer. It does try to have some seasonal variations. I would guess Shorter Christian Prayer goes for about $15 these days.

Quote
from the little bit of reading I've done they seem extremely difficult to follow.

Naw, that’s mostly hype by people who do the Office for six months and give up. If you do what I say start with Night Prayer and then work up to Morning and Evening Prayer you’ll be fine.

You may wish to ask your priest for help in finding your way around. That being said, I have found priests are some of the worst culprits of cutting corners and playing fast and loose with the rubrics, so don’t necessarily take even single detail your priests says to be Gospel. They can be a help though. You may even find a group of Christians in your area who says the Office regularly.

Quote
I'm also under the impression that there is a big difference betw the LOTH and the DO.
Technically this is incorrect. The LOTH is just the most current edition of the Divine Office. Hence on the title page of the LOTH it says:

The Divine Office

revised by the decree of the Second Vatican Ecumenical
Council and published by the authority of Pope Paul VI


The
Liturgy of the Hours

According to the Roman Rite

However, there are substantial differences between what could be termed the “traditional” (c.1962) Breviary and the LOTH. However they’re beyond the scope of this thread. For my money, the old Office had it good and bad points, as does the new Office. The reason I ultimately continue to say the LOTH is because if you find Ordained and non-Ordained Christians who say the Office, more than likely you will find them saying the LOTH. The LOTH is the normative version of the Office in the Latin Rite.

One legitimate counter to the above is if you attend the “traditional” (again, circa 1962) Mass. The headaches caused by saying the LOTH and going to the Latin Mass as endless because the two use different Kalendars. That is something to take into consideration. Then again, old Breviaries goes for a higher price than even the full LOTH.


« Last Edit: June 21, 2009, 04:18:PM by Credo » Logged

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Credo
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« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2009, 09:40:PM »

Quote from: glgas
If you are traditional you recite the Divine Office, that is the Extraordinary form, what the Church prayed for over 1500 years

This is misleading. For one, no general in-use edition of the Breviary claims origins before Trent. To my knowledge, there is no traditional group on the face of the earth which pretends to pray the version of the Office published following Trent.

Traditional Catholics have a major flaw in their arguments concerning the perceived "novelty" of the Novus Ordo Missae. The traditional Achilles Heal is this: under the reign of Pope S. Pius X the Breviary - an intregal component of the liturgy in its own right - was totally and radically overhauled. For some reason I have never heard enemies of tradition bring this point up, but it is a reality that Pius X drastically changed a version of the Office. One can in no wise say the 1955 or 1962 edition of the Office was somehow being said for 100 years, let alone 1500.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2009, 04:19:PM by Credo » Logged

I promise not to put anything here which might help us question our mind-forged manacles, inspire us, or help us in any way at all.

N.B.: I will not be posting on this site again until the Christmas octave. Have a good Advent.


aquinas138
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« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2009, 01:28:AM »

Quote from: glgas
If you are traditional you recite the Divine Office, that is the Extraordinary form, what the Church prayed for over 1500 years

This is misleading. For one, no general in-use edition of the Breviary claims origins before Trent. To my knowledge, there is no traditional group on the face of the earth which pretends to pray the version of the Office published following Trent.

Traditional Catholics have a major flaw in their arguments concerning the perceived "novelty" of the Novus Ordo Missae. The traditional Achilles Heal is this: under the reign of Pope S. Pius X the Breviary - an intregal component of the liturgy in its own right - was totally and radically overhauled. For some reason I have never heard enemies of tradition bring this point up, but it is a reality the Pius X drastically changed a version of the Office. One can in no wise say the 1955 or 1962 edition of the Office was somehow being said for 100 years, let alone 1500.

Not to derail the thread, but while the changes St. Pius X made to the Breviary were fairly extensive, they did not obscure the character of the Office, as the NOM as typically celebrated certainly can the character of the Mass.  In many cases, his changes actually restored the character of the Roman Office, in particular the restoration of the weekly psalter.  The redistribution of the Psalms is perhaps regrettable, but they certainly don't change the character of the Roman Office - it is still recognizable as such.

As for the original poster, I encourage you to start with whatever Hours your family can devote themselves to.  If you choose the Liturgy of the Hours, http://www.ebreviary.com/ has a subscription service that assembles each day's office in handy booklet formats so you don't have to buy books.  If you choose the traditional office, I recommend you start with Prime and Compline.  If you choose to only say one, I say choose Compline before bedtime.  One inexpensive option - the publishing arm of the FSSP, http://www.fraternitypublications.com/ , sells paperback books for $4.50 that have Compline for every day of the week in parallel Latin-English.  Angelus Press also sells Divinum Officium, which has Prime, Sext and Compline for each day of the week.  It's about $35, but is much more durable than the FSSP paperback.
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jovan66102
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« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2009, 01:38:AM »

Quote from: glgas
If you are traditional you recite the Divine Office, that is the Extraordinary form, what the Church prayed for over 1500 years

This is misleading. For one, no general in-use edition of the Breviary claims origins before Trent. To my knowledge, there is no traditional group on the face of the earth which pretends to pray the version of the Office published following Trent.



I'd try any Traditional Benedictine House that still prays the Office according to the Rule, handed down 1500 years ago. Really, your continued defence, support and puffery of 'McOffice', aka the LOTH gets rather tiresome. It is a radical departure from the Church's traditional Liturgy and I find it a bit surprising that anyone calling himself a Trad could argue in its favour.
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glgas
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« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2009, 07:06:AM »

Quote from: glgas
If you are traditional you recite the Divine Office, that is the Extraordinary form, what the Church prayed for over 1500 years

This is misleading. For one, no general in-use edition of the Breviary claims origins before Trent. To my knowledge, there is no traditional group on the face of the earth which pretends to pray the version of the Office published following Trent.

Traditional Catholics have a major flaw in their arguments concerning the perceived "novelty" of the Novus Ordo Missae. The traditional Achilles Heal is this: under the reign of Pope S. Pius X the Breviary - an intregal component of the liturgy in its own right - was totally and radically overhauled. For some reason I have never heard enemies of tradition bring this point up, but it is a reality the Pius X drastically changed a version of the Office. One can in no wise say the 1955 or 1962 edition of the Office was somehow being said for 100 years, let alone 1500.

I am studiing this question for two years. Here is as I see:

If I get my picture from the time when I was 2 years old (I was almost bald and fat) and an other one from the time when I was 8 years old (I was extremely slim with dark brown hair; there was a war in between) and lokk into the mirror now (I am somewhat belo average feature white hair) I could say as you do, the three pictures represent a different entity. My conscience, and only my conscience not the physical apparence makes the identyrt.

Read the Regula of St Benedict (Chapters 8-20) and if you are familiar with the Monastic Breviary you will find all elements of that in the description of the Regula from the 5th Century: almost same Psalter, readings, Responsories, Versicles, Antiphones, Hymns, and most importantly the same hours as the traditional breviary today.

To prove the thesis of the organic development I build up the three set of diocesan forms (St Pius V = Tridentine, St Pius X = Divino Afflatu, 1960) using the 1888 Pustet edition and Bute's 1908 English. There are some new offices missing, in some cases one of the language is missing (e.g. for today the exposition of the story of Samuel = lection 4-6 in English because in England in 2008 the third Sunday after Pentecost was the feast of the Smi. Cordis Jesu) but got about 90 percent success. This is called organic development. I did not evenm tried the Liturgy of Hours, because that is entirely different, changing the structures, the number of the horas, the accepted text of the psalter, the weekly distribution of the psalter, the readings, and what is not changes it can be optionally replaced by something else.

WEhen I was 12 years old in 1949 in every night I'd preayed the Completorium with a group of boys.

The result of the Liturgy of Hours was not that the laity started to pray the office in great numbers, but that even the majority of the cathedrals (diocesan centers) abandoned to pray the Office publicly

I do not say that the Liturgy of Hours is wrong in itself, only that it is not organic development from the Office what the Church prayed for over 1500 years, and hopefully after this modernist experiment will be extincted together with our rotten homosexual, immoral, greed worshiping civilization, the traditional Office will connect God and his people again.

If you truly believe that you are right and the Liturgy of Hours is the resolution to the problem of our world, and not just onet to prrove your somebodiness tyo the admiring bog, then your conscience may justify you; but I recommend you to look for your pictures from the past, and look for the versions of the office and ask the question: which is organic development,  which represent identity and which not.

I'm Nobody! Who are you?
Are you – Nobody – too?
Then there's a pair of us?
Don't tell! they'd advertise – you know!

How dreary – to be – Somebody!
How public – like a Frog – 
To tell one's name – the livelong June – 
To an admiring Bog!

laszlo
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Underdog
Trad with a twang
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« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2009, 07:37:AM »

Thanks, y'all, for all the info.  I shall try to work in the Completorium this week, and maybe on pay day send off for the Angelus Press book.  I think I'll start off with just Compline with the children until we get the hang of it all and then later add Prime and then Sext (perhaps doing these myself first and then trying with the children).

Another question (just out of curiosity): why are the hours usually referred to by their French names? 
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glgas
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« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2009, 11:19:AM »

I'd try any Traditional Benedictine House that still prays the Office according to the Rule, handed down 1500 years ago.

Jovan,

do you know any available publication or better electronic text of the Benedictine office without copyright restriction or with license for fair use? I would like to set it for comparison with the Roman versions.

laszlo

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