The New Mass

[didishroom]

I'm absolutely convinced had I not been raised with the TLM I would have no Faith whatsoever.....being there today at Mass I could clearly see myself in an alternative universe calling the priest a child molester, mocking the Blessed Sacrament and condemning the Church's stance on homosexuals, abortion, contraception and women priests.

[INPEFESS]

Although I do not apologize for posting these videos, I am sorry if anyone was bothered by either the subject matter, repetition of old material, or, as does seem to be a case, a misinterpretation of my intention. There was no intention of proving anything by these videos and there are many who, having been raised in tradition, have never actually seen what has taken place at some of these "Masses".

Because I made no reference to debate or "proof" in my OP, I believe that any feelings of distaste toward the presentation of facts find their origins in the bliss of ignorance and denial. Nevertheless, it does not change what has occurred, what is occurring, and what will continue to occur so long as these abonimations are apologized, justified, and defended.

No attack on the Church Herself is here present. This is but a presentation of historical facts which, to some, can be hard to witness. Again, I apologize if anyone who misinterpreted the intentions of this post was irked by the subject matter or the repetition of old material, but, as I said, a proper understanding of my intention is in order as well as the proper execution of your free will to watch the videos.

Miserere nobis.

[INPEFESS]

Maybe I'm just being too melancholic and serious, but I'm curious why we need to continually drag out the worst of the worst from the last 20 years and parade it around just to console us on how righteous we actually are.

Yes, I am sorry to say, I believe you are being too serious; the last statement is a rash judgment of my intention.

I would hope that after 40 years (and given we have a Pope who, despite many faults, clearly sees and continually talks about a need to make the Liturgy more reverent) we would have better arguments in favor of more Traditional Masses in place of the Novus Ordo Missæ.

This thread is found in an entire forum devoted to "...better arguments in favor of Traditional Masses in place of the Novus Ordo Missae." This is but one thread and hardly an argument "...in favor of more Traditional Masses in place of the Novus Ordo Missæ." This intention was not stated in my post. Like an article containing information of the same nature, it is a presention of facts and nothing more.

Seeing this crap continuously circulated make me feel sorry for the whole traditional movement, because it makes us look like Publicans, proud that we abstain every Friday and we have the "real Mass" unlike those silly and sad "Novus Ordinarians"!

I'm sorry it bothers you so much. But we have a right to be thankful for the grace of God and the gifts that He has given to us through the availability of the TLM. There is no other intention in this thread. If you perceive one, then it is not more than a misrepresentation of my intention.

Are we really trying to progress in holiness or are we just out to try to make ourselves feel like we're holy because of how unholy everyone else is?

I find this particular statement very disappointing and, I'm sorry to say, ironic. You seem insistent upon presuming the ill will of myself for posting this thread. I assure you, I meant no harm nor intended my post to be used in the manner for which you have condemned it. I presume you are sincerely concerned about the spiritual well-being of other traditional Catholics; I would be grateful if you would extend to me the same courtesy. May God be with you, and I thank you for making known your concern!

[Jacafamala]

Maybe I'm just being too melancholic and serious, but I'm curious why we need to continually drag out the worst of the worst from the last 20 years and parade it around just to console us on how righteous we actually are.

I would hope that after 40 years (and given we have a Pope who, despite many faults, clearly sees and continually talks about a need to make the Liturgy more reverent) we would have better arguments in favor of more Traditional Masses in place of the Novus Ordo Missæ.

I say this as an ardent supporter of the SSPX.

Some of these quotes, videos and the like have been circulating for years. And, quite simply, they are not representative at all. Your average Novus Ordo Mass (accidentally, not in essence, of course) is vulgar in the proper sense of that word. No reasonable person could say otherwise if we compare the average OF Mass with the average of what came in the preceding 18 or 19 centuries. Not all Novus Ordo Masses are that way, but the great majority are vulgar. Only a very few are so vulgar as those here. That is not to say that the way the Traditional Mass was celebrated in the past (and even now) is not equally as problematic.

Seeing this crap continuously circulated make me feel sorry for the whole traditional movement, because it makes us look like Publicans, proud that we abstain every Friday and we have the "real Mass" unlike those silly and sad "Novus Ordinarians"!

Are we really trying to progress in holiness or are we just out to try to make ourselves feel like we're holy because of how unholy everyone else is?

Well, I wasn’t going to say anything… but since you did and so eloquently. 

There is much wrong with the Novus Ordo Mass without the clowns. We don’t have to bring in the circus to validate our arguments. I have never been to a Clown Mass in my life. Nobody I know has seen a Clown Mass. That’s not to say they don’t exist. But if we want to have an honest discussion it’s better to set forth as an example the average Sunday experience – unless of course someone wants to post a few videos of the other extreme – a “reverent Novus Ordo Mass” – such as the one they air on EWTN, or the one the Pope in Rome offers every day. Or at least admit that what we are showing is the “worst of the worst” for yet more shock value.

- Lisa

In his defense, I don't think INPEFESS is being proud or arrogant in posting these you tube clips. "Clown" Masses, and liturgical abuse in general still exists. Such offenses against the Holy Mass, Our Lord's most precious gift to us needs to be stopped. Turning a blind eye to trouble doesn't make it go away.

[glgas]

Seeing this crap continuously circulated make me feel sorry for the whole traditional movement, because it makes us look like Publicans, proud that we abstain every Friday and we have the "real Mass" unlike those silly and sad "Novus Ordinarians"!

Are we really trying to progress in holiness or are we just out to try to make ourselves feel like we're holy because of how unholy everyone else is?

I agree with this. sh** happens, but we, Chritians are not supposed to put the sh** to the window, neither our's nor other's

We shall look for what is good in the New Mass, and we shall try to emphasize that good. The Masses of the pope, or the EWTN or the St John Cantius fathers arer full with reverence and pleasing God. I belive if we ask them many New Order priest will be ready to celebrate such masses; if we flatly reject them they will be worse.

Worldwide 400,000 priests celebrate the New Mass, and may be 3,000 less than a percent the Traditional one. Christ wants to attract everyone but he rejects those who say.

Matt 18:11 O God, I give thee thanks that I am not as the rest of men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, as also is this publican. 12 I fast twice in a week: I give tithes of all that I possess.

and accept those saying: O God, be merciful to me a sinner.

laszlo

[MagisterMusicae]

INFEFESS,

My words were not intended for you personally, but at the subject matter. Please do not read them as a personal judgment of yourself.

If you think my words a personal indictment, you have misread my intention as much as you suggest I have.

I don't think your intention malformed. I imagine your intention was very good. My point was that we have far better ways to more accurately lead people to a traditional faith than replaying the abuses of the Novus Ordo.

Most people who come to tradition tend to have a great zeal to prove that the New Mass is bad. The zeal is good, but just like any new experience, it has to be directed, tempered and refined. After rounding things out, one tends to see that being a traditional Catholic is about exactly what St. Pius X wrote in his first Apostolic Letter (and took as his motto) Instatuare Omnia in Christo -- To restore all things in Christ.

That goal includes avoiding the Novus Ordo, primarily because it is a bastardization of the Mass and even reverently it is meant to be Vulgar in the proper sense of that word. But being a traditional Catholic is not defined by hatred of the New Mass. I don't know what you think about the New Mass and your need to decry it. That's immaterial. Many, however, do think that the more they hate and decry the evils of the new Mass the better traditionalist and the more Catholic they are. "If I could just shock people into seeing how bad the Novus Ordo really is" they say.

What is interesting is that those who come to tradition by means of the effect of people leading a traditional life tend to be very strong in their faith and directed at restoring Christendom every day, not just concerned with which Mass they attend on Sunday.

Again, none of this is directed as a personal commentary on yourself or your attitude. In my past when I came to tradition nearly 10 years ago, I was zealously trying to prove how evil the Novus Ordo was while I ignored nurturing my faith for years. Once I dug deeper, I saw an entirely new level of why tradition is the answer. I also have been far more effective in helping others consider tradition once I got off the hose beating and started addressing cultural Catholicism. My words, are thus, meant to help people who read this stop for a few minutes and think about digging a bit deeper than just the evils of the New Mass.

[Mhoram]

Most people who come to tradition tend to have a great zeal to prove that the New Mass is bad.

I think we have a tendency to want to defend the decision we've made, because we know many people will see it as weird or worse.  That involves praising the TLM, but also explaining why we stopped attending the NO.  After all, for most of us a certain amount of sacrifice is involved---driving farther, kneeling more, leaving behind family and friends in a parish we were invested in.  In many cases, a major reason was that the NO was bad.  (Standard disclaimer: "as it is commonly practiced.")  We have reasons, and we want to express them.  We also want to share them with like-minded people to reaffirm our own position.

Also, it's just hard to explain what's good about the TLM without mentioning the bad about the NO (standard disclaimer: as it is usually practiced).  Comparison is a useful technique for explaining things to other humans, and with most Catholics having never attended a TLM or having forgotten what it was like, the best way to describe it to them is by saying how it is and isn't like the NO with which they're familiar.  After all, if I just say how reverent the TLM is, they may be thinking, "Hmm, isn't our Mass reverent?"  To make the distinction, I have to say it's more reverent, which is automatically saying the NO isn't as reverent as it should be.

Another point is that I and most of the regular Mass-going Catholics I know were complaining about NO abuses and irreverence long before I even knew the TLM existed.  It wasn't unusual to spend lunchtime talking about the servers and serverettes goofing around, or the political sermon, or the dirge-like Responsorial Psalm, or the improperly dressed parents letting their kids run wild in front of us.  So I didn't start criticizing the NO when I became a "trad"; I became a trad because I had many criticisms of the NO and that led me to search for something better.

[INPEFESS]

INFEFESS,

My words were not intended for you personally, but at the subject matter. Please do not read them as a personal judgment of yourself.

If you think my words a personal indictment, you have misread my intention as much as you suggest I have.

I don't think your intention malformed. I imagine your intention was very good. My point was that we have far better ways to more accurately lead people to a traditional faith than replaying the abuses of the Novus Ordo.

Most people who come to tradition tend to have a great zeal to prove that the New Mass is bad. The zeal is good, but just like any new experience, it has to be directed, tempered and refined. After rounding things out, one tends to see that being a traditional Catholic is about exactly what St. Pius X wrote in his first Apostolic Letter (and took as his motto) Instatuare Omnia in Christo -- To restore all things in Christ.

That goal includes avoiding the Novus Ordo, primarily because it is a bastardization of the Mass and even reverently it is meant to be Vulgar in the proper sense of that word. But being a traditional Catholic is not defined by hatred of the New Mass. I don't know what you think about the New Mass and your need to decry it. That's immaterial. Many, however, do think that the more they hate and decry the evils of the new Mass the better traditionalist and the more Catholic they are. "If I could just shock people into seeing how bad the Novus Ordo really is" they say.

What is interesting is that those who come to tradition by means of the effect of people leading a traditional life tend to be very strong in their faith and directed at restoring Christendom every day, not just concerned with which Mass they attend on Sunday.

Again, none of this is directed as a personal commentary on yourself or your attitude. In my past when I came to tradition nearly 10 years ago, I was zealously trying to prove how evil the Novus Ordo was while I ignored nurturing my faith for years. Once I dug deeper, I saw an entirely new level of why tradition is the answer. I also have been far more effective in helping others consider tradition once I got off the hose beating and started addressing cultural Catholicism. My words, are thus, meant to help people who read this stop for a few minutes and think about digging a bit deeper than just the evils of the New Mass.

I understand what you're saying, and I understand that many do this, but as I said in my earlier post, I wasn't trying to prove the evils of the new Mass or even lead others to tradtion. I only hoped my post would incite others to gratitude for the TLM. How greatful we as Catholics should be to still have the TLM available to us! We could be as unfortunate as some of this forum's members who are forced to battle with these or other abominations every Sunday.

Sometimes, seeing the bad reaffirms the good. I assure you, the intention is nothing more than that.

[Jacafamala]

As the number of NO priests continues to decline, we'll see more bad Masses. Also, we'll see more "Eucharistic Celebrations" with an NO deacon preforming the Liturgy of the Word, followed by the distribution of the Eucharist. This prayer service will take the place of the Mass; they already have in many areas. With no sacrifice being offered. And they will fulfill one's Sunday obligation. Many will say it is like the Mass, but without a priest.  People need to know what is and what is not Mass. I'm convinced that the reason these abuses take place is, to a large extent because people don't even know what the Mass is.

Lord send us priests.
Lord send us holy priests.
Lord send us many holy priests.

[INPEFESS]

This prayer service will take the place of the Mass; they already have in many areas. With no sacrifice being offered. And they will fulfill one's Sunday obligation. Many will say it is like the Mass, but without a priest. 

They have? Oh that is very sad. As they lessen the Masses, let us increase our Prayer, penance, and self-denial; they are our only real weapons.