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Author Topic: The meaning of the word "goyim"  (Read 15336 times)
Bonifacius
Member

Posts: 1,380


« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2010, 07:00:AM »

I'm glad someone has pointed this out.  Look, Alaric, JayneK is responding to *one* specific thing and please stick to that.  Some people claim that "goyim" means "cattle" and use this as a weapon against Jews.  But "goyim" doesn't mean that.  So the claim is false.  We aren't allowed to lie.  So her point is completely valid and nothing can be said against it.  I am a goy, i.e. a Gentile, i.e. a non-Jew.  I fit the qualifications for "goy."  That's true regardless of what evil, malicious things the Talmud says about Gentiles.  St. Edith Stein was an ethnic Jewess regardless of whether Nazis think ethnic Jews are sub-human or not.  I am an ethnic goy=Gentile regardless of whether Talmudists think goyim are sub-human or not. 
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Being partly of Norwegian extraction, I enjoy lutefisk.  Now there's some stinky fish.  Hence my high stink factor. 

http://www.cornellsociety.org
devotedknuckles
the causes go, true rebels remain
Member

Personality type: incorrigible buffalo
Posts: 20,677



« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2010, 07:31:AM »

Jane what kinda jew did u get braught up as? Just curious and it would help the discussion. This is by no means an attack lass. So pls don't misunderstand me. Just would like to know where ur commin from. Maybe u posted it already but I missed it.
Sip
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This is the journey
from which, for me there shall be no return
wholly drenched
is the pine tree of  tears
-Yoshida Shoin
alaric
Lone Wolf
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Gender: Male
Posts: 6,975



« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2010, 07:52:AM »

If anywhere in official Catholic holy writ some theologian proposed "Even the best of the Jews should be killed" we wouldn't be having this conversation .

Some people have said that all Jews should be killed.  Those who took exception to this proposal did not object on the grounds that the word "Jew" is an insult. 

"This conversation" is my attempt to clear up a misunderstanding about what a word means.  I am having difficulty seeing the relevance of your comments.

Probably more than a few Jayne, my point being was that , it isn't commentary in any Christian texts, and definitely not any Roman Catholic to my knowledge. you're talking about openly avowing the genocide of all other peoples or as you would have it "nations", this cannot be acceptable, not from a Christian vantage point. Possibly the usage of the word like "perfidious" which I suppose offends many Jews, especially some Rabbi's who seem to be enraged at this accusation and that is expected, the Pharisees reacted the same when Christ called them out on their treachery of the faith and scripture. But no where that I know of does any of Christian theologian propose that even the best of Judaic should be killed and I'm not talking about some nutcase running around with a bible with no denomination affiliation., there are wackjobs in every belief system, but the Talmud is part and parcel and instrumental in translation and commentary of Judaism.

I understand what you are attempting to do and I do get it that what you're saying about the definition of the word "goyim" and what many Jews are really saying when they use this word to describe the non-Jew. But in the Talmud they are very clear in what they mean with the phrase "goyim" and the context in which they use it. It's detrimental and in their eyes we're less than human. We're not going to split atoms here, it says what it says and to any "goyim", especially Christian, it is highly offensive.

Again, the word is offensive to me because of it's usage in the Talmud and many Jews have taken this to heart and apply it when it is convenient for them to excuse them of certain responsibilities for other people outside of their religion/race/culture and this goes on and is relative in our culture today and is the driving force behind the lack of empathy where there should be in the human dignity of others .

That is my point, the justification of atrocity by some Jews to other non-Jews because after all, their only "stupid goyim".

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To defend oneself, one must also be ready to die. There is little such readiness in a society raised in the cult of material well-being. Nothing is left, then, but concessions, attempts to gain time, and betrayal.
--- Alexander Solzhenitsyn


"Wrong is wrong even if everybody is doing it, and right is right even if nobody is doing it."
-St. Augustine Doctor of the Church

In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
George Orwell

There is no limit to investigating the truth; until you discover it.
- Cicero
devotedknuckles
the causes go, true rebels remain
Member

Personality type: incorrigible buffalo
Posts: 20,677



« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2010, 07:59:AM »

Hold on bonofucius.
He dictionary meaning of a word and its meaning in the mpouths of people can be and are often different.
to use an example and its only to illustrate a point the word XXXX supposedly means ignorent. But come npo in the mouths of racists that word doesn't mean ignorent and I have heard people using it justify it saying it only means ignorent. But really it means much much more then that.
Goyim and goy may mean natipns but in my experience when my ex would be with me and her family or former friends would use that term they sure as hell weren't saying "dk is of another nation" though that's true goy in their mputhd was meaning something like untouchable or unclean or filth.
Don't kid yourselves. Dictionary meanoings are just that. But the meaning of certain words change and mean different thongs in peoples mouths
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This is the journey
from which, for me there shall be no return
wholly drenched
is the pine tree of  tears
-Yoshida Shoin
alaric
Lone Wolf
Member

Gender: Male
Posts: 6,975



« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2010, 08:08:AM »

If anywhere in official Catholic holy writ some theologian proposed "Even the best of the Jews should be killed" we wouldn't be having this conversation .

Some people have said that all Jews should be killed.  Those who took exception to this proposal did not object on the grounds that the word "Jew" is an insult. 

"This conversation" is my attempt to clear up a misunderstanding about what a word means.  I am having difficulty seeing the relevance of your comments.


She's a smart one she is Alaric. This new one is not to be trifled with.

I'm glad to hear another person put off by the bizarro jew obsession I've seen on here from several people *cough*
I am not "trifling" with anybody, she started a thread about what the "real" meaning of the word "goyim" is and where it comes from and I responded in kind of what it means to me and the context of it's usage.

I don't know if you're lumping me in with "jew-obsessors" or not and I really don't care.

But I can tell you this, I lived amongst the most heavily Hasidic populations in the world outside of Israel and I know exactly what they mean in the connotation of that word and how it applies to the non-Jew and most of us "goys" were insulted by it.

Have you ever lived around a culture enmeshed with the teachings of the Talmud? Talk about bizarro world. Crazy
Logged

To defend oneself, one must also be ready to die. There is little such readiness in a society raised in the cult of material well-being. Nothing is left, then, but concessions, attempts to gain time, and betrayal.
--- Alexander Solzhenitsyn


"Wrong is wrong even if everybody is doing it, and right is right even if nobody is doing it."
-St. Augustine Doctor of the Church

In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
George Orwell

There is no limit to investigating the truth; until you discover it.
- Cicero


devotedknuckles
the causes go, true rebels remain
Member

Personality type: incorrigible buffalo
Posts: 20,677



« Reply #15 on: January 02, 2010, 08:18:AM »

Jane starts a thread about this yet alaric is accused of being jew obsessed?
Not very just imho
Sip
Logged

This is the journey
from which, for me there shall be no return
wholly drenched
is the pine tree of  tears
-Yoshida Shoin
alaric
Lone Wolf
Member

Gender: Male
Posts: 6,975



« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2010, 08:21:AM »

I'm glad someone has pointed this out.  Look, Alaric, JayneK is responding to *one* specific thing and please stick to that.  Some people claim that "goyim" means "cattle" and use this as a weapon against Jews.  But "goyim" doesn't mean that.  So the claim is false.  We aren't allowed to lie.  So her point is completely valid and nothing can be said against it.  I am a goy, i.e. a Gentile, i.e. a non-Jew.  I fit the qualifications for "goy."  That's true regardless of what evil, malicious things the Talmud says about Gentiles.  St. Edith Stein was an ethnic Jewess regardless of whether Nazis think ethnic Jews are sub-human or not.  I am an ethnic goy=Gentile regardless of whether Talmudists think goyim are sub-human or not. 
What the hell do I care what the "Nazi's think"? Why are they always dragged in on these discussions?

Yes to some Nazi's the word "jew" meant one thing and to many it meant a totally different thing. not all of them wanted to genocide Jews. as a matter of fact Goering thought is was a huge mistake even dabbling in the "final solution"

But any of that is not relevant at all to this discussion, it's what and where the word "goyim" comes from, where it has been applied and how non-Jews have historically reacted to it.

And it is not a "lie" that the term applied to non-Jews as "cattle". You are lying in denying this.


And regardless of what some Talmudists proclaim, I don't consider my self an animal. You know, sub-human.

Gentile, maybe.
Logged

To defend oneself, one must also be ready to die. There is little such readiness in a society raised in the cult of material well-being. Nothing is left, then, but concessions, attempts to gain time, and betrayal.
--- Alexander Solzhenitsyn


"Wrong is wrong even if everybody is doing it, and right is right even if nobody is doing it."
-St. Augustine Doctor of the Church

In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
George Orwell

There is no limit to investigating the truth; until you discover it.
- Cicero
Bonifacius
Member

Posts: 1,380


« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2010, 08:21:AM »

Look, the word "goy" means a Gentile, a non-Jew.  Period.  The word itself does njot mean "cow," the plural "goyim" does not mean "cattle."  Of course, in the mouth of a Jew being a "goy" is not a good thing.  And in the mouth of a Christian being a "Jew" in the religious sense is not a good thing.  And the Talmud says awful things about goyim.  GRANTED!  But that doesn't mean that the word "goy" itself is a pejorative for non-Jews; it is just the word for a non-Jew, which of course in the jewish world is not a good thing.  All JayneK is refuting is the persistent (I've seen it many times) claim that goy "really" means "cow" and that when Jews call us goyim they're saying we're subhuman cattle.  

P.S. I don't read or respond to your posts anymore, DK.  I've learned it doesn't go anywhere.  
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Being partly of Norwegian extraction, I enjoy lutefisk.  Now there's some stinky fish.  Hence my high stink factor. 

http://www.cornellsociety.org
alaric
Lone Wolf
Member

Gender: Male
Posts: 6,975



« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2010, 08:27:AM »

Jane starts a thread about this yet alaric is accused of being jew obsessed?
Not very just imho
Sip

Well that's how it usually goes DK, even Jayne who is a converted Jew is not applying that term in our discussion and that's what it is.

But then all these lemmings come crawling out from under with their attacks and accusations, usually nothing of substance and totally irrelevant to the topic.

Can we stick to the OP without the slander?
Logged

To defend oneself, one must also be ready to die. There is little such readiness in a society raised in the cult of material well-being. Nothing is left, then, but concessions, attempts to gain time, and betrayal.
--- Alexander Solzhenitsyn


"Wrong is wrong even if everybody is doing it, and right is right even if nobody is doing it."
-St. Augustine Doctor of the Church

In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
George Orwell

There is no limit to investigating the truth; until you discover it.
- Cicero
Bonifacius
Member

Posts: 1,380


« Reply #19 on: January 02, 2010, 08:28:AM »

Hey, guess what, Alaric.  I never mentioned the word genocide once.  I never said anything about killing Jews -- you brought that up.  It is completely irrelevant to the discussion.  All I mentioned was the Nazi belief in the inferiority of the Jewish race as sub-human, or, perhaps it is better to say, "sub-Aryan."  Nazi *ideology* most certainly *did* hold that Jews were inferior to Aryans.  I brought it up because the situation is precisely analogous to Talmudic claims about Gentiles.

And you still don't know what you're talking about.  The Hebrew *word* "goy" does not mean "cow."  That is *not* what the word means.  To say that the word "goy" means "cow" is a lie, a lie told against Jews.  Just like -- *analogy,* which is relevant here! -- the word "Jew" doesn't mean "sub-Aryan."  A raging Talmudist thinks that goyim are sub-human; that's part of what the word means in his usage.  A raging Nazi thinks that Jews are sub-Aryan; that's part of what the word means in his usage.  But the *etymology* of Jew is not "sub-Aryan."  *LIKEWISE* (that's called argument by analogy, Alaric, in case you're not familiar with that type of argument), the *etymology* of goy is not "sub-Jew."  So a Jew can call us "goyim" and we can't say he's insulting us unless we ask further what he thinks about goyim.  JUST AS (analogy again!) we can call him a Jew and he can't say that's an insult unless we (or whoever) reveal that we use that word insultingly.  The basic dictionary entry, the denotation of "goy," is just "non-Jew, Gentile," NOT "cattle."   The rest are connotations.  

And *yes* this is an important issue as many people on the Internet have claimed that the *word* "goyim" *itself* means "cattle" and hence is inherently insulting.  That's a lie, a lie that makes critics of the Talmud look like they're dishonest and ignorant.  Critique the Talmud by all means, but false claims need to be eliminated so you don't look dishonest and ignorant.  Don't give your enemy anything to attack you with by mucking up the etymology of a word as simple as "Gentile." 

The *Bible* uses the word "goyim" to refer to the "nations," i.e. the "Gentiles."  So obviously the word itself is not an insult.  Just as the word "Jew" is not an insult.  There is no more a contradiction in terms in the statement, "Goyim are full human beings," than in saying, "Jews are full human beings." 
« Last Edit: January 02, 2010, 08:52:AM by Bonifacius » Logged

Being partly of Norwegian extraction, I enjoy lutefisk.  Now there's some stinky fish.  Hence my high stink factor. 

http://www.cornellsociety.org
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