Iuvenalis
Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!
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Sacred Heart of Jesus, I trust in Thee!
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« Reply #60 on: March 16, 2010, 10:28:PM » |
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I did read it, but I didn't think your side of it was the standard position of the Church. I was convinced it was literalism, and you were just trying to present a more rational alternative to what I though was the official position. Hence, I kept going in the same direction
 (was making one more edit while you composed this) I don't believe the Church has ever considered scripture *exactly* purely or literal historical documents in and of themselves. In fact, teasing this out is why authority in interpretation is so important, and where we believe Protestants often err significantly. |
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"It is questionable whether the proper functions of Catholics is to hunt down, "expose" and condemn Catholics they suspect of undue rigidity, disobedience or "material schism"; especially while giving support to a Vatican ecumenical campaign which addresses heretics and actual Schismatics as "separated brethren", Jews as "people of the covenant" and Muslims as "people of God". This is part of the overall contradiction (or inconsistency) that permeates the "conservative" mentality. Cloaked in a pledged loyalty to all things "whatsoever" emanating from the Holy See, many "conservatives" will go beyond the measures taken by the Church leaders, or even disagree with their actual positions. The Hawaii "excommunications" were an obvious example but others can be seen. "Conservatives" denounce as "Schismatic" all those who set foot in SSPX chapels while the Vatican embraces the Schismatics in China. "Conservatives" deny any significant change at the Second Vatican Council while the Pope celebrates the enormity and impact of the changes. "Conservatives" seek the conversion of the Eastern "Orthodox" while the Vatican promises not to "proselytize" them. "Conservatives" deride American bishops while the Pope appoints and promotes the same ones." -Peter Miller "Tolerance is the last virtue of a depraved society When an immoral society has blatantly and proudly violated all the commandments, it insists upon one last virtue, tolerance for its immorality. It will not tolerate condemnation of its perversions. It creates a whole new world in which only the intolerant critic of intolerable evil is evil." - H. Gibson(5 x 10 x 17) x (5 x 10 x 17) ≠ 722,500 |
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Metatron
"The truth is not for all men, but only for those who seek it" -Ayn Rand
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Location: Canada
Posts: 190
Felix, qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas
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« Reply #61 on: March 16, 2010, 10:36:PM » |
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There are historical aspects of scripture (as well as poetic/literary, and prophetic, etc etc), but I don't believe the Church has ever considered scripture *exactly* purely or literal historical documents in and of themselves. In fact, teasing this out is why authority in interpretation is so important, and where we believe Protestants often err significantly.
Well, I can't argue with that. It's better than what I had seen from the average literalism. At least this is good common sense |
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"God does not ignore man, he knows him fully, as God also wishes to be known. This is the salvation for man: knowledge of God." - Corpus Hermeticum
"Things Divine are not attainable by mortals who understand the body alone, but only by those who stripped of their garments arrive at the summit." - The Chaldaean Oracles
"The happiness of every object is its own perfection; and perfection for each is communion with its own cause. For this reason we pray for communion with the Gods" - Sallustius, On the Gods and the World
"Let all people live in harmony ... Men should be taught and won over by reason, not by blows, insults, and violence."
- Emperor Julian 331-363 AD
- His disciples said to him, "When will the kingdom come?"
Jesus said, "It will not come by waiting for it. It will not be a matter of saying 'here it is' or 'there it is.' Rather, the kingdom of the father is spread out upon the earth, and men do not see it." - Gospel of Thomas, 113
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QuisUtDeus
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« Reply #63 on: March 17, 2010, 12:02:AM » |
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I did read it, but I didn't think your side of it was the standard position of the Church. I was convinced it was literalism, and you were just trying to present a more rational alternative to what I though was the official position. Hence, I kept going in the same direction
Most non-Catholics (and a bunch of Catholics, too) misunderstand the Church. You should read the Church's documents not some half-baked theories, usually Protestant. And definitely ignore anything Jack Chick has to say. Really, common sense should tell most people that since some of the greatest minds in the history of mankind were Catholic at the very least the religion isn't as "stupid" as some would make it sound. One can find the real teachings and reasons behind it if one wants to make the effort. I hope you are one of those who want to make the effort and give things a fair look-see! |
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Iuvenalis
Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!
Member
Gender:
Location: California
Personality type: Picador
Posts: 4,152
Sacred Heart of Jesus, I trust in Thee!
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« Reply #64 on: March 17, 2010, 01:33:AM » |
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My own conversion from atheism began with academic work on the medieval intellectuals. It was the reasoned rational approach to their Faith that led me to reconsider some of my notions of Christians
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"It is questionable whether the proper functions of Catholics is to hunt down, "expose" and condemn Catholics they suspect of undue rigidity, disobedience or "material schism"; especially while giving support to a Vatican ecumenical campaign which addresses heretics and actual Schismatics as "separated brethren", Jews as "people of the covenant" and Muslims as "people of God". This is part of the overall contradiction (or inconsistency) that permeates the "conservative" mentality. Cloaked in a pledged loyalty to all things "whatsoever" emanating from the Holy See, many "conservatives" will go beyond the measures taken by the Church leaders, or even disagree with their actual positions. The Hawaii "excommunications" were an obvious example but others can be seen. "Conservatives" denounce as "Schismatic" all those who set foot in SSPX chapels while the Vatican embraces the Schismatics in China. "Conservatives" deny any significant change at the Second Vatican Council while the Pope celebrates the enormity and impact of the changes. "Conservatives" seek the conversion of the Eastern "Orthodox" while the Vatican promises not to "proselytize" them. "Conservatives" deride American bishops while the Pope appoints and promotes the same ones." -Peter Miller "Tolerance is the last virtue of a depraved society When an immoral society has blatantly and proudly violated all the commandments, it insists upon one last virtue, tolerance for its immorality. It will not tolerate condemnation of its perversions. It creates a whole new world in which only the intolerant critic of intolerable evil is evil." - H. Gibson(5 x 10 x 17) x (5 x 10 x 17) ≠ 722,500 |
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QuisUtDeus
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« Reply #65 on: March 17, 2010, 03:08:AM » |
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There are historical aspects of scripture (as well as poetic/literary, and prophetic, etc etc), but I don't believe the Church has ever considered scripture *exactly* purely or literal historical documents in and of themselves. In fact, teasing this out is why authority in interpretation is so important, and where we believe Protestants often err significantly.
Well, I can't argue with that. It's better than what I had seen from the average literalism. At least this is good common sense Yeah, let me put this into a more of a Theurgical / Neo-Platonist context... I also think it's good common sense many in the Church held Hermes Trismegistus in high esteem as one who found God through reason as Plato did. You and I should talk Hermetics, Platonism, and Neo-Platonism in relation to the Church sometime. I think you'll be surprised at what you find, especially pre-Aquinas and in the Renaissance time frame. As far as spurious authors, the author of the Hermetica is one, as I'm sure you know, as well as pseudo-Dionysius who is responsible for defining the angelic hierarchy. That doesn't make everything they said wrong, of course. |
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Metatron
"The truth is not for all men, but only for those who seek it" -Ayn Rand
Member
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Location: Canada
Posts: 190
Felix, qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas
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« Reply #66 on: March 17, 2010, 05:21:AM » |
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Yeah, let me put this into a more of a Theurgical / Neo-Platonist context...
I also think it's good common sense many in the Church held Hermes Trismegistus in high esteem as one who found God through reason as Plato did. You and I should talk Hermetics, Platonism, and Neo-Platonism in relation to the Church sometime. I think you'll be surprised at what you find, especially pre-Aquinas and in the Renaissance time frame.
As far as spurious authors, the author of the Hermetica is one, as I'm sure you know, as well as pseudo-Dionysius who is responsible for defining the angelic hierarchy. That doesn't make everything they said wrong, of course.
I looked a bit into Renaissance Hermeticism, but I don't know the full extent of the Church's views on Hermes, other than that many Christians admired him as a precursor of Christianity, from the time of Moses. I do know that the Corpus Hermeticum was preserved thanks to Byzantine monks who copied it and obviously found value in it - I think probably the strong monism in it (which constitutes the core of my religious beliefs), the emphasis on the Monad and the source of all seems quite harmonious with Christian monotheism. Of course, the Hermetica was pseudepigraphic, but then Pagans didn't seem to place as much emphasis on the importance of authorship as some Christians (like many fundamentalists today) - syncretism and openness was more common on the Pagan side. I'm personally more interested in the content of sacred texts, than in whatever labels or authorship may be attributed to them (I don't believe in fixed canons personally either). But, like I had mentioned, many Christians were/are extremely adamant about the need for genuine authorship of their holy books (perhaps this may be related to apostolic succession somehow?), sometimes even placing more importance on authentic provenance/lineage than actual contents (the modern mega-preachers especially do that a lot). So this was part of my issue, before I knew the full Catholic position - a book should perhaps be more valued for its contents, than for being genuine or original in terms of authorship. But, then again, just to briefly play devil's advocate and now that I think of it, I can kind of understand to a certain extent (given the exclusivist nature of Christianity) how that requirement of genuine provenance might have come about, as a need to keep the doctrines of the faith pure from external influence. Different religions, different approaches... |
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« Last Edit: March 17, 2010, 05:58:AM by Metatron »
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"God does not ignore man, he knows him fully, as God also wishes to be known. This is the salvation for man: knowledge of God." - Corpus Hermeticum
"Things Divine are not attainable by mortals who understand the body alone, but only by those who stripped of their garments arrive at the summit." - The Chaldaean Oracles
"The happiness of every object is its own perfection; and perfection for each is communion with its own cause. For this reason we pray for communion with the Gods" - Sallustius, On the Gods and the World
"Let all people live in harmony ... Men should be taught and won over by reason, not by blows, insults, and violence."
- Emperor Julian 331-363 AD
- His disciples said to him, "When will the kingdom come?"
Jesus said, "It will not come by waiting for it. It will not be a matter of saying 'here it is' or 'there it is.' Rather, the kingdom of the father is spread out upon the earth, and men do not see it." - Gospel of Thomas, 113
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WanderingPenitent
A spiritual Knight-Errant.
Member
Gender:
Location: Wisconsin
Personality type: INTJ, Choleric.
Posts: 1,082
Fear Not the Cold
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« Reply #67 on: March 17, 2010, 02:11:PM » |
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But, then again, just to briefly play devil's advocate and now that I think of it, I can kind of understand to a certain extent (given the exclusivist nature of Christianity) how that requirement of genuine provenance might have come about, as a need to keep the doctrines of the faith pure from external influence. Different religions, different approaches...
Look up Al Ghazali. Christianity has nothing on the exclusivist influence he has had on Sunni Islam. |
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"I would rather fall with Adam,
than rise with all your gods."
-G.K.Chesteron
Bloggers were invented ca. 300 AD. and were originally called "monks." Like their distant social descendants, monks had horrible haircuts, rarely left their home, spoke a language to eachother no one else understood, and never went on dates.
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Metatron
"The truth is not for all men, but only for those who seek it" -Ayn Rand
Member
Gender:
Location: Canada
Posts: 190
Felix, qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas
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« Reply #68 on: March 19, 2010, 05:19:AM » |
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I just looked into him a bit. It seems he attacked the philosophical approach to religion, which he considered a corrupting force for Islam, and came up with his own more simplistic theories. Sad...
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"God does not ignore man, he knows him fully, as God also wishes to be known. This is the salvation for man: knowledge of God." - Corpus Hermeticum
"Things Divine are not attainable by mortals who understand the body alone, but only by those who stripped of their garments arrive at the summit." - The Chaldaean Oracles
"The happiness of every object is its own perfection; and perfection for each is communion with its own cause. For this reason we pray for communion with the Gods" - Sallustius, On the Gods and the World
"Let all people live in harmony ... Men should be taught and won over by reason, not by blows, insults, and violence."
- Emperor Julian 331-363 AD
- His disciples said to him, "When will the kingdom come?"
Jesus said, "It will not come by waiting for it. It will not be a matter of saying 'here it is' or 'there it is.' Rather, the kingdom of the father is spread out upon the earth, and men do not see it." - Gospel of Thomas, 113
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ServantofGod
Member
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Location: United States of America
Posts: 85
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« Reply #69 on: April 14, 2010, 11:44:AM » |
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Hello All:
I have a book titled: “Lost Books of the Bible and the Forgotten Books of Eden by World Bible Publishing (1968)” The book contains, among others:
The Gospel of the Birth of Mary
The Protevangelion
The Gospel of the Infancy of Jesus Christ
The Infancy Gospel of Thomas
The Epistles of Jesus Christ and Abgarus King of Edessa
The Gospel of Nicodemus (Acts of Pilate)
The Apostles' Creed (throughout history)
The Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Laodiceans
The Epistles of Paul the Apostle to Seneca, with Seneca's to Paul
The Acts of Paul and Thecla
The Epistles of Clement (The First and Second Epistles of Clement to the Corinthians)
The Epistle of Barnabas
The Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians
The Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians
The Epistle of Ignatius to the Trallians
The Epistle of Ignatius to the Romans
The Epistle of Ignatius to the Philidelphians
The Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrneans
The Epistle of Ignatius to Polycarp
The Shepherd of Hermas (Visions, Commands, and Similitudes)
Letter of Herod To Pilate the Governor
Letter of Pilate to Herod
The Lost Gospel of Peter
The Epistle of Polycarp to the Philippians
I have searched the Vatican web site and I have found several references to these documents lending some credence to their authenticity in concept. It is my understanding that many of these documents are actual archived documents, therefore legitimate for study and not just fictitious gobbledygook like the DiVinci Code. The book contains several documents which I understand to be noncanonical or uninspired but otherwise legitimate historical texts. Is this correct? Are the documents faithfully translated (understanding that “…all translations are lies and all translators are liars…”).
So my questions become “Are these legitimate texts worthy of serious historical study?” And: “Are these texts made-up nonsense parading as legitimate historical texts?”
I'm not a biblical scholar, nor a theologian, just an ordinary guy.
Cheers!
Caoimhín P. Connell
AMDG
I would read these with caution. Joseph Smith also found such "scripture" that was supposidly lost. |
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