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Author Topic: Science vs. Religion  (Read 3046 times)
Pilgrim
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Gender: Male
Posts: 3,707



« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2010, 05:24:PM »

Brevis:

That is how I understand the claims of the scientists.  I'm a historian, though, so take my understanding with some Morton's...  Smile

Herr_Manelig:

Could you explain how diversity is "consistent with entropy in all cases"?  I'm not sure I'm understanding your point.

<edited to include a response to Herr_Menelig's post>
« Last Edit: January 19, 2010, 05:27:PM by Pilgrim » Logged

"And so, Lord, do you, who do give understanding to faith, give me, so far as you knowest it to be profitable, to understand that you are as we believe; and that you are that which we believe." -- St. Anselm of Canterbury (1033-1109)

"But Christianity preaches an obviously unattractive idea, such as original sin; but when we wait for its results, they are pathos and brotherhood, and a thunder of laughter and pity; for only with original sin we can at once pity the beggar and distrust the king." -- G. K. Chesterton (1874-1936)

"The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist."  Baudelaire and Verbal Kint from The Usual Suspects

"I'm a practicing Catholic; I'm practicing until I get it right." Martin Sheen
Rosarium
Guest
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2010, 05:26:PM »

That is how I understand the claims of the scientists.  I'm a historian, though, so take my understanding with some Morton's...  Smile
Fork, Salt or Steakhouse?
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Pilgrim
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Gender: Male
Posts: 3,707



« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2010, 05:28:PM »

That is how I understand the claims of the scientists.  I'm a historian, though, so take my understanding with some Morton's...  Smile
Fork, Salt or Steakhouse?

Touche! Smile
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"And so, Lord, do you, who do give understanding to faith, give me, so far as you knowest it to be profitable, to understand that you are as we believe; and that you are that which we believe." -- St. Anselm of Canterbury (1033-1109)

"But Christianity preaches an obviously unattractive idea, such as original sin; but when we wait for its results, they are pathos and brotherhood, and a thunder of laughter and pity; for only with original sin we can at once pity the beggar and distrust the king." -- G. K. Chesterton (1874-1936)

"The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist."  Baudelaire and Verbal Kint from The Usual Suspects

"I'm a practicing Catholic; I'm practicing until I get it right." Martin Sheen
DesperatelySeeking
Member

Posts: 2,417



« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2010, 08:18:PM »

Why is it "versus"?  This is the Church that gave the world the very idea of the university!

I understand your question and post, but I guess I look at the choice as a false dichotomy.  You can, in fact MUST, accept faith with reason, and reason, since it is in pursuit of the truth, must logically be in concord with Truth.

Fides et Ratio!
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Pilgrim
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Gender: Male
Posts: 3,707



« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2010, 09:23:PM »

I understand your question and post, but I guess I look at the choice as a false dichotomy.  You can, in fact MUST, accept faith with reason, and reason, since it is in pursuit of the truth, must logically be in concord with Truth.
Well said, sir!  I wish we could still give fishies...
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"And so, Lord, do you, who do give understanding to faith, give me, so far as you knowest it to be profitable, to understand that you are as we believe; and that you are that which we believe." -- St. Anselm of Canterbury (1033-1109)

"But Christianity preaches an obviously unattractive idea, such as original sin; but when we wait for its results, they are pathos and brotherhood, and a thunder of laughter and pity; for only with original sin we can at once pity the beggar and distrust the king." -- G. K. Chesterton (1874-1936)

"The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist."  Baudelaire and Verbal Kint from The Usual Suspects

"I'm a practicing Catholic; I'm practicing until I get it right." Martin Sheen


BrevisVir55
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Gender: Male
Posts: 2,299



« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2010, 10:20:PM »

I understand your question and post, but I guess I look at the choice as a false dichotomy.  You can, in fact MUST, accept faith with reason, and reason, since it is in pursuit of the truth, must logically be in concord with Truth.
Fides et Ratio!

Agreed! But I can't reason that we came from a fish which is what they teach us in school...but as far as faith and reason working together on theological matters- always!  Smile


pax

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CaoimhinPConnell
Member

Posts: 215



« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2010, 12:34:AM »

Hello All:

Great comments and thoughts.  I will try to address them honestly.

i.p.i

“tell me about what you do as a forensic industrial hygienist and i'll see if my guess is correct”

My work is varied, I “specialize” in toxicology and microbiology.  For example today, I had two investigations: One involved the investigation of how an employee of a utilities company ended up with an elevated carboxyhemoglobin level in his blood in the absence of carbon monoxide exposure (there are numerous good reasons).  I also investigated symptomology of an occupant of an house with strange clinical signs and symptomology – I discovered her gas-fired stove was not burning correctly and was producing huge quantities of ultrafine particles that were creating respiratory distress.  Today COHb, tomorrow lasers, the next day "toxic moulds" (which don't exist) or ionizing radiation, and then next week onto some chemical exposure resulting in some reported illness… It’s all fun and games; especially when someone looses an eye!  In my case, since I am also a cop, I get involved in dead bodies and toxicological assessments of clandestine drug labs.

Hello BrevisVir55:

I mean if you don't believe in evolution then don't your colleagues mock you?

When people speak of the “theory of evolution” they usually don’t understand the word “theory” or “evolution” or compound the problem by not understanding either. 

For example, when we look at a motor car, we can legitimately speak of “theory of the internal combustion engine” (and it is just that – “just a theory”) but because it is “just a theory” it doesn’t stop a car from trundling down the motor way.   When we count to ten, we are engaging certain aspects of the “number theory,” but just because it is “just a theory” won’t preclude us from getting to eleven.  Similarly when we speak of the “theory of evolution” we are speaking of an indisputable scientific fact that easily demonstrable in any high school microbiology classroom. 

Evolution is an example of the Glorious Hand of God – especially when, as i.p.i. may tell you, when we see marvelous phenomenon such as jumping genes, and some shenanigans occurring with Pribnow boxes in replication sequences and where microbes can translate sequences for different proteins from the same sequence by starting at a different locations (or even reading sequences backwards! – sometimes backwards and forwards like giant palindromes).  It’s amazing stuff, and SCREAMS of the existence of God – such elegance and beauty surely cannot have occurred by mere chance.  It was in fact the study of microbiology and in particular evolutionary microbiology that turned me back to God and the Catholic Church.  Evolution occurs as surely as the Earth revolves around the Sun, and does so by the grace of God.

I have found that without exception, those who choose to not believe in evolution (almost exclusively Protestants and Evangelicals) don’t actually understand evolution, and instead create their own nonsensical versions of what they think constitutes evolution and they create straw-man arguments so they can then knock down their own creations (which usually have nothing to do with evolution).  I have never encountered someone who understood evolution who did not acknowledge its existence.  You own comment “I don’t believe we came from monkeys…” underscores a misconception of evolution borne of ignorance – that is not what evolution states.   The poster called Pilgrim hits the nail on the head.

Evolution is not contrary to God, rather it cries out to the marvelous glory of God.  How could it be otherwise? If there is a conflict between reality and religion, then religion, a construct of people must be in error, since God created reality.  Our Church, Mother Church, is the Earthly vehicle by which God brings us to understand His nature in this material world (that may not be theologically correct, but if not it is due to my ignorance in such matters).

Legitimate science is a process, not an end, a process by which we may test doubt.  Do we as Christian, not alos test doubt?  Indeed, science is an exercise in doubt.

There is a lot of faith employed by secularists in science, don’t be fooled – they too have to rely on faith, they just don’t see it that way.

Cheers!
Caoimhín P. Connell
Forensic Industrial Hygienist
www.forensic-applications.com

(The opinions expressed here are exclusively my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect my professional opinion, opinion of my employer, agency, peers, or professional affiliates.  The above post is for information only and does not reflect professional advice and is not intended to supercede the professional advice of others.)

AMDG
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Magnificat
Guest
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2010, 09:21:AM »

Sounds like you have a fun job!  ;D

BTW, I do sciency stuff and have generally always assumed that the inability of some others to reconcile faith with reason is due to a lack of education or lack of willingness to believe.  They're usually doing both bad science and bad philosophy. 
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Anthem
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Gender: Male
Location: midwest US
Posts: 948


Give me ambiguity or give me something else.


« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2010, 03:39:PM »

I have never encountered someone who understood evolution who did not acknowledge its existence. 

Nice to meet you.  You have now encountered someone who understands evolution but does not see it as a defensible scientific theory.  Note well that I did not say that evolution is necessarily "contrary to God".  It is true, however, that many secular humanists have used evolution as a vehicle to discredit God as Creator.
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CaoimhinPConnell
Member

Posts: 215



« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2010, 11:32:PM »

Hello Anthem!

Making a statement is easy, and the ability to make a statement does not necessarily provide any credibility for the statement.  For example:

1) The moon doesn’t exist.
2) I speak 16 languages.
3) You have now encountered someone who understands evolution but does not see it as a defensible scientific theory.
4) There is no such thing as electricity.
5) Man never landed on the moon.

And so forth… all very easy to make.

The credibility of the statement, if not axiomatic, lies in articulating the rationale for the statement.  I noticed your post didn’t contain anything to support the comment.  Perhaps you have something else to say?

Cheers!
Caoimhín P. Connell
Forensic Industrial Hygienist
www.forensic-applications.com


(The opinions expressed here are exclusively my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect my professional opinion, opinion of my employer, agency, peers, or professional affiliates.  The above post is for information only and does not reflect professional advice and is not intended to supercede the professional advice of others.)

AMDG
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