Swimming Suits and Modesty

[Walty]

Can men not train themselves to look at cute women in bathing suits and not become aroused?  I think they can and do, especially in places where people wear bikinis all of the time.  Lifeguards learn that.   I'm still not saying bikinis are modest, though. 

Not really.  It's kind of a physiological response.  People like lifeguards don't train themselves not to, they just kind of are so continuously assaulted by it that they get desensitized to it somewhat.

Exactly.  The only thing that can overcome concupiscence is supernatural grace.  Earthly "solutions" succeed only in desensitizing us which in turns allows only for us to accept things which are that much more perverted.

[Rosarium]

Can men not train themselves to look at cute women in bathing suits and not become aroused?  I think they can and do, especially in places where people wear bikinis all of the time.  Lifeguards learn that.   I'm still not saying bikinis are modest, though. 

Not really.  It's kind of a physiological response.  People like lifeguards don't train themselves not to, they just kind of are so continuously assaulted by it that they get desensitized to it somewhat.

Exactly.  The only thing that can overcome concupiscence is supernatural grace.  Earthly "solutions" succeed only in desensitizing us which in turns allows only for us to accept things which are that much more perverted.

It is also a matter of choice. A personal constantly surrounded by such things is perfectly capable of choosing to pay attention and have the same effects as one who is not usually in such a situation. A person "desensitised' to the most explicit things can just as easily choose to be aroused by someone by most standards modestly dressed. If one is dressed in a way that some detail is shown (face, gender, etc), it is a possible for a person to choose to sin based on that.

[Satori]

I don't know how fair it is to expect teenagers to be able to control their thoughts (or their physiological responses, if they're boys) when surrounded by suits that expose backsides and boobs.

[Rosarium]

I don't know how fair it is to expect teenagers to be able to control their thoughts (or their physiological responses, if they're boys) when surrounded by suits that expose backsides and boobs.

Adults too.

With swim suits, it is bad enough form is hardly hidden due to the nature of the clothing and setting, but skin shown (especially in certain areas) is very bad for both men and women.

Being concealed in the water mitigates this, but prancing about with all one's bits and pieces hanging out for the world to ogle is bad.

[Satori]

I don't know how fair it is to expect teenagers to be able to control their thoughts (or their physiological responses, if they're boys) when surrounded by suits that expose backsides and boobs.

Adults too.

With swim suits, it is bad enough form is hardly hidden due to the nature of the clothing and setting, but skin shown (especially in certain areas) is very bad for both men and women.

Being concealed in the water mitigates this, but prancing about with all one's bits and pieces hanging out for the world to ogle is bad.

I certainly agree with all of this, but you seemed to be saying above that people can learn to control what they find attractive. I don't know whether that's true or not, but some mercy should be shown at least to teenagers -- all pumped up with hormones and lacking the experience or maturity to deal with it, usually.

You're right, too, that it's bad for women. I have a hypothesis that one of the reasons lesbianism is more common now is that females in Western society are so relentlessly sexualized that even girls are affected by it.

[Iolanthe]

I don't know how fair it is to expect teenagers to be able to control their thoughts (or their physiological responses, if they're boys) when surrounded by suits that expose backsides and boobs.

Adults too.

With swim suits, it is bad enough form is hardly hidden due to the nature of the clothing and setting, but skin shown (especially in certain areas) is very bad for both men and women.

Being concealed in the water mitigates this, but prancing about with all one's bits and pieces hanging out for the world to ogle is bad.

What about a tankini or one-piece that covers a lot more than a bikini? Isn't that better comparatively? At a beach a girl in a moderately decent bathing suit would be showing so much less that the other females there, I would think she would be fine. There's only so much lust to go around.

N.B. I avoid crowded beaches and swimming pools anyway. It's always been too much drama to figure out the modesty thing. But it seems that a good Catholic guy should be able to be around a girl in a normal bathing suit...or am I wrong? It doesn't seem fair that Catholic girls have to bear the entire brunt of the world's immodesty and exploitation of women's bodies by wearing a tent at a beach. And as far as sin goes, there's a world of difference between wearing something appropriate for swimming and wearing something specifically designed to display the body in an immodest way like a bikini.

[Satori]

I don't know how fair it is to expect teenagers to be able to control their thoughts (or their physiological responses, if they're boys) when surrounded by suits that expose backsides and boobs.

Adults too.

With swim suits, it is bad enough form is hardly hidden due to the nature of the clothing and setting, but skin shown (especially in certain areas) is very bad for both men and women.

Being concealed in the water mitigates this, but prancing about with all one's bits and pieces hanging out for the world to ogle is bad.

What about a tankini or one-piece that covers a lot more than a bikini? Isn't that better comparatively? At a beach a girl in a moderately decent bathing suit would be showing so much less that the other females there, I would think she would be fine. There's only so much lust to go around.

N.B. I avoid crowded beaches and swimming pools anyway. It's always been too much drama to figure out the modesty thing. But it seems that a good Catholic guy should be able to be around a girl in a normal bathing suit...or am I wrong? It doesn't seem fair that Catholic girls have to bear the entire brunt of the world's immodesty and exploitation of women's bodies by wearing a tent at a beach. And as far as sin goes, there's a world of difference between wearing something appropriate for swimming and wearing something specifically designed to display the body in an immodest way like a bikini.

Why does the choice have to be between wearing a "normal" bathing suit and wearing a tent? Why can't we have comfortable, sane bathing suits that are safe and easy to swim in and don't put us on display? It's for our own benefit, too. I don't see how women can relax and have fun at the pool or the beach when they're wearing suits that require a wax job and a demanding exercise regime.

But if you're making the point that men ought to be more concerned with their personal modesty, I agree. I'm not crazy about seeing men without shirts.

[Rosarium]

What about a tankini or one-piece that covers a lot more than a bikini? Isn't that better comparatively? At a beach a girl in a moderately decent bathing suit would be showing so much less that the other females there, I would think she would be fine. There's only so much lust to go around.

I do not think it is that relative, but I think the important part is the lower body and the upper body skin. Being in water usually effectively hides the lower body, so the issue is mainly the out of water appearance. Men, inexplicably, tend to wear baggy swimming trunks.  Women, on the other hand, tend to wear very little if that in that area. That should be remedied. The upper body on the other hand should be covered as appropriate with material suitable for being wet (it shouldn't become transparent when wet). Scipio_a pointed out modesty can be a bit relative, and to a degree, I think that is correct. There are slightly different standards at the swimming hole, but biology and morality do not disappear and it is important to be modest even there.

[Satori]

I, too, agree that modesty is relative (although not to the "T-back and pasties" extent, by any means), but one of the problems with the bathing suits of today is that they are radically different from what most people wear on the street. This becomes even more apparent when traditional Catholic women wear conventional bathing suits. Why would a woman who wears knee-length skirts and blouses that cover her shoulders and cleavage think that it's okay to go to the pool in the equivalent of a Victoria's Secret body suit? It is certainly not necessary to show that much in order to swim.

[Iolanthe]

Why does the choice have to be between wearing a "normal" bathing suit and wearing a tent? Why can't we have comfortable, sane bathing suits that are safe and easy to swim in and don't put us on display? It's for our own benefit, too. I don't see how women can relax and have fun at the pool or the beach when they're wearing suits that require a wax job and a demanding exercise regime.

But if you're making the point that men ought to be more concerned with their personal modesty, I agree. I'm not crazy about seeing men without shirts.

I agree. The question is what is a "normal" bathing suit? I honestly wish I could answer that myself.

The thing about men and shirts...many of the trads I know have no problem with men and boys going shirtless at a pool, which is something that a hundred years ago would never have been appropriate in mixed company. I think it's reasonable that society has changed enough that it IS fine, but there shouldn't be a double standard for what women can wear and how much should be covered. Up to a point, both men and women are more used to having fewer clothes on while swimming now than in the past. It's just hard because you can make convincing arguments for many different standards and it's hard to know what to do.