INPEFESS
Please remember me in your rosary intentions.
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† "If anyone love Me, he will keep My word." †
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« on: June 17, 2010, 08:25:PM » |
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I recently came across this in the Qu'ran: (36) A token unto them is night. We strip it of the day, and lo! they are in darkness. (37) And the sun runneth on unto a resting-place for him. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Wise. (38) And for the moon We have appointed mansions till she return like an old shrivelled palm-leaf. (39) It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit. For those who can read Arabic, you can see the original here:
وَءَايَةٌ۬ لَّهُمُ ٱلَّيۡلُ نَسۡلَخُ مِنۡهُ ٱلنَّہَارَ فَإِذَا هُم مُّظۡلِمُونَ (٣٧) وَٱلشَّمۡسُ تَجۡرِى لِمُسۡتَقَرٍّ۬ لَّهَاۚ ذَٲلِكَ تَقۡدِيرُ ٱلۡعَزِيزِ ٱلۡعَلِيمِ (٣٨) وَٱلۡقَمَرَ قَدَّرۡنَـٰهُ مَنَازِلَ حَتَّىٰ عَادَ كَٱلۡعُرۡجُونِ ٱلۡقَدِيمِ (٣٩) لَا ٱلشَّمۡسُ يَنۢبَغِى لَهَآ أَن تُدۡرِكَ ٱلۡقَمَرَ وَلَا ٱلَّيۡلُ سَابِقُ ٱلنَّہَارِۚ وَكُلٌّ۬ فِى فَلَكٍ۬ يَسۡبَحُونَ (٤٠)
According to the interpretations I've heard from at least two Muslims now, verse 37 says that the sun "runneth", "moves", or "revolves" unto a resting-place for man - to bring the night. It also says that both the sun and moon are in orbit, presumably around the Earth. I questioned this and found out that Islam teaches that the Sun revolves around the Earth. Bear in mind that Islam teaches that the Qu'ran is the unaltered, unadulterated, unsullied, infallible word of God. The scientists who teach heliocentrism, I found out, are fools, evil, or misinformed according to many Muslims. Poor Copernicus. Had he only known... Has anyone seen this promotion of the geocentric model proposed by Islam before? Shouldn't knowledge of the Earth's revolution around the Sun prove Islam false to Muslims? |
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I n N omine P atris, E t F ilii, E t S piritus S ancti "The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative magisterium" (Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum, no. 9, June 29, 1896). “Wherefore, brethren, labour the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election. For doing these things, you shall not sin at any time” (2 Peter 1:10).
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Rosarium
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« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2010, 09:04:PM » |
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For those who can read Arabic, you can see the original here:
وَءَايَةٌ۬ لَّهُمُ ٱلَّيۡلُ نَسۡلَخُ مِنۡهُ ٱلنَّہَارَ فَإِذَا هُم مُّظۡلِمُونَ (٣٧) وَٱلشَّمۡسُ تَجۡرِى لِمُسۡتَقَرٍّ۬ لَّهَاۚ ذَٲلِكَ تَقۡدِيرُ ٱلۡعَزِيزِ ٱلۡعَلِيمِ (٣٨) وَٱلۡقَمَرَ قَدَّرۡنَـٰهُ مَنَازِلَ حَتَّىٰ عَادَ كَٱلۡعُرۡجُونِ ٱلۡقَدِيمِ (٣٩) لَا ٱلشَّمۡسُ يَنۢبَغِى لَهَآ أَن تُدۡرِكَ ٱلۡقَمَرَ وَلَا ٱلَّيۡلُ سَابِقُ ٱلنَّہَارِۚ وَكُلٌّ۬ فِى فَلَكٍ۬ يَسۡبَحُونَ (٤٠)
Man, Arabic with vowel markings is such a mess. According to the interpretations I've heard from at least two Muslims now, verse 37 says that the sun "runneth", "moves", or "revolves" unto a resting-place for man - to bring the night. It also says that both the sun and moon are in orbit, presumably around the Earth. I questioned this and found out that Islam teaches that the Sun revolves around the Earth.
Bear in mind that Islam teaches that the Qu'ran is the unaltered, unadulterated, unsullied, infallible word of God.
The scientists who teach heliocentrism, I found out, are fools, evil, or misinformed according to many Muslims. Poor Copernicus. Had he only known...
Copernicus was wrong, so was Galileo. Heliocentrism is wrong too. The sun is the not the centre of anything, or it is the centre of everything. Relativity makes the issue more interesting in that from any perspective, anywhere can be the centre. The earth is our vantage point of the universe, hence, it is the centre. The laws of physics work both ways: the movement of the heavenly bodies can be described relative to the earth as much as the earth can be described to move relative to them. Relative to other objects in the universe, we are moving near the speed of light, but no one would claim that we are moving the speed of light and experiencing its effects (although, we are, relative to other things). Has anyone seen this promotion of the geocentric model proposed by Islam before? Shouldn't knowledge of the Earth's revolution around the Sun prove Islam false to Muslims?
Careful... http://www.scripturecatholic.com/geocentrism.html |
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salus
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« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2010, 09:08:PM » |
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INPEFESS
Please remember me in your rosary intentions.
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Personality type: Mostly melancholic
Posts: 10,860
† "If anyone love Me, he will keep My word." †
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« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2010, 09:34:PM » |
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I will treat of this and the rest of your post more thoroughly later when I have time, but the fact that the Earth revolves around the Sun does not contradict Scripture at all. I will explain why it does not later if I have time. |
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I n N omine P atris, E t F ilii, E t S piritus S ancti "The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative magisterium" (Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum, no. 9, June 29, 1896). “Wherefore, brethren, labour the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election. For doing these things, you shall not sin at any time” (2 Peter 1:10).
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Rosarium
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« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2010, 08:23:AM » |
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I will treat of this and the rest of your post more thoroughly later when I have time, but the fact that the Earth revolves around the Sun does not contradict Scripture at all. I will explain why it does not later if I have time. True, but then again, one cannot deny it is the other way around either. It is all relative. If the earth were "moving" relative to us, we'd feel its effects (we do, when we move on its surface, but that is still largely stationary relative to the earth). So, we are in fact stationary relative to the earth and the earth is stationary relative to us. |
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Anastasia
i > u
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« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2010, 09:49:AM » |
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Right.  Catholics martyred, churches turned into mosques, rational thought forbidden: just think, Europe could be just like Saudi Arabia! On the original topic, is it universally agreed in Islam that the Earth is the center of the solar system? You'd think there would some at least who say it's a metaphor only? |
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People talk vaguely about the innocence of a little child, but they take mighty good care not to let it out of their sight for twenty minutes.-Saki.
"Meanwhile, Fate was quietly slipping lead into the boxing glove. "
— P.G. Wodehouse
The Modernist's Prayer by R.A. Knox
O God, forasmuch as without Thee
We are not enabled to doubt Thee,
Help us all by Thy Grace
To convince the whole race
It knows nothing whatever about Thee.
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INPEFESS
Please remember me in your rosary intentions.
Member
Gender:
Personality type: Mostly melancholic
Posts: 10,860
† "If anyone love Me, he will keep My word." †
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« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2010, 10:16:AM » |
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Right. Catholics martyred, churches turned into mosques, rational thought forbidden: just think, Europe could be just like Saudi Arabia! On the original topic, is it universally agreed in Islam that the Earth is the center of the solar system? You'd think there would some at least who say it's a metaphor only? No, I don't think Islam specifically teaches geocentrism. However, it does teach that the Sun revolves around the earth...and that is the "infallible" word of Allah speaking. |
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I n N omine P atris, E t F ilii, E t S piritus S ancti "The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative magisterium" (Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum, no. 9, June 29, 1896). “Wherefore, brethren, labour the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election. For doing these things, you shall not sin at any time” (2 Peter 1:10).
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INPEFESS
Please remember me in your rosary intentions.
Member
Gender:
Personality type: Mostly melancholic
Posts: 10,860
† "If anyone love Me, he will keep My word." †
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« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2010, 10:33:AM » |
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I will treat of this and the rest of your post more thoroughly later when I have time, but the fact that the Earth revolves around the Sun does not contradict Scripture at all. I will explain why it does not later if I have time. True, but then again, one cannot deny it is the other way around either. It is all relative. If the earth were "moving" relative to us, we'd feel its effects (we do, when we move on its surface, but that is still largely stationary relative to the earth). So, we are in fact stationary relative to the earth and the earth is stationary relative to us. Alright... I got very busy last night and didn't have time to type anything up; I apologize if you stayed up waiting for a reply. I can treat of each Scripture entry one by one if you need me to, but I don't think you do. I think it is quite obvious that it never says the earth doesn't move; it says that the Earth will never be moved. If the Earth is already in orbit, then of course it will never be moved unless God chooses to move it. It would be like taking a baseball and throwing it out into space. Once I throw it, it will never be moved from its trajectory unless acted upon by an outside force, but that is not to say that it isn't still moving. The people who edited that page on ScriptureCatholic summed up the verses in a way that doesn't follow from the verses they cited. They say that Scripture states quite plainly that the Earth doesn't move. No, Scripture doesn't say that the Earth doesn't move; Scripture says that the Earth will not be moved, presumably from it's established orbit. Likewise, that Scripture says the Earth stands firm doesn't mean it isn't in perpetual motion. It's course is indeed firm; it is as firm as its orbit. But Islam says something completely different. Islam says the Sun's motion creates the night (instead of the Earth's motion), and that the sun, like the Moon, is in orbit (based on the context) around the Earth. EDITED |
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« Last Edit: June 18, 2010, 11:26:AM by INPEFESS »
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I n N omine P atris, E t F ilii, E t S piritus S ancti "The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative magisterium" (Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum, no. 9, June 29, 1896). “Wherefore, brethren, labour the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election. For doing these things, you shall not sin at any time” (2 Peter 1:10).
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INPEFESS
Please remember me in your rosary intentions.
Member
Gender:
Personality type: Mostly melancholic
Posts: 10,860
† "If anyone love Me, he will keep My word." †
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« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2010, 11:23:AM » |
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Copernicus was wrong, so was Galileo.
Yes, I know. And if I earned a dime every time you said that, I'd never have to work again.  Heliocentrism is wrong too. The sun is the not the centre of anything, or it is the centre of everything. I think heliocentrism only says that the planets revolve around the sun - not that everything else does, too - and that the Sun is the center of the universe. If the Sun can be the center of the universe according to relative motion, then can you say that it is wrong? Relativity makes the issue more interesting in that from any perspective, anywhere can be the centre. The earth is our vantage point of the universe, hence, it is the centre. The laws of physics work both ways: the movement of the heavenly bodies can be described relative to the earth as much as the earth can be described to move relative to them. Relative to other objects in the universe, we are moving near the speed of light, but no one would claim that we are moving the speed of light and experiencing its effects (although, we are, relative to other things).
Of course, but heliocentrism is still, de facto, "wrong"? Careful of what? ...of saying that the Earth has been placed by God in the foundation of its orbit, never to be moved? I don't think Scripture condemns that. Notice that I didn't say: Has anyone seen this promotion of the geocentric model proposed by Islam before? Shouldn't knowledge of heliocentrism prove Islam false to Muslims?
Instead, I said: Has anyone seen this promotion of the geocentric model proposed by Islam before? Shouldn't knowledge of the Earth's revolution around the Sun prove Islam false to Muslims?
Do you deny that the Earth revolves around the Sun in the foundation of an orbit? |
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« Last Edit: June 18, 2010, 11:27:AM by INPEFESS »
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I n N omine P atris, E t F ilii, E t S piritus S ancti "The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative magisterium" (Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum, no. 9, June 29, 1896). “Wherefore, brethren, labour the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election. For doing these things, you shall not sin at any time” (2 Peter 1:10).
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JamieF
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« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2010, 05:58:PM » |
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Copernicus was wrong, so was Galileo.
Yes, I know. And if I earned a dime every time you said that, I'd never have to work again. Heliocentrism is wrong too. The sun is the not the centre of anything, or it is the centre of everything. I think heliocentrism only says that the planets revolve around the sun - not that everything else does, too - and that the Sun is the center of the universe. If the Sun can be the center of the universe according to relative motion, then can you say that it is wrong? Relativity makes the issue more interesting in that from any perspective, anywhere can be the centre. The earth is our vantage point of the universe, hence, it is the centre. The laws of physics work both ways: the movement of the heavenly bodies can be described relative to the earth as much as the earth can be described to move relative to them. Relative to other objects in the universe, we are moving near the speed of light, but no one would claim that we are moving the speed of light and experiencing its effects (although, we are, relative to other things).
Of course, but heliocentrism is still, de facto, "wrong"? Careful of what? ...of saying that the Earth has been placed by God in the foundation of its orbit, never to be moved? I don't think Scripture condemns that. Notice that I didn't say: Has anyone seen this promotion of the geocentric model proposed by Islam before? Shouldn't knowledge of heliocentrism prove Islam false to Muslims?
Instead, I said: Has anyone seen this promotion of the geocentric model proposed by Islam before? Shouldn't knowledge of the Earth's revolution around the Sun prove Islam false to Muslims?
Do you deny that the Earth revolves around the Sun in the foundation of an orbit? No existing model can be proven - even St Thomas Aquinas said that of the geocentric model. We are free to believe either model as it is impossible to ever prove for certain which is correct. The geocentric model works perfectly well - the heliocentric model works perfectly well - an invented model with Mars at the center would also work equally well. These models are not supported by proof - they are merely attempts to give the best description of the sky and its motion. I believe in the geocentric model - I believe the Sun revolves around the earth which is the dead center of physical reality - but it is not to say you can't believe your own model - mine just accords better with ancient writings which I am interested in. |
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