Arguments about modesty

[Satori]

I'm sorry that Cathkath's sensible remarks were buried by yet another argument about breastfeeding.

I don't mind single men having an opinion about women breastfeeding in public, but I do mind when they keep on insisting that bottles are the way to go for public feedings despite having the problem with this explained to them by experienced mothers. Especially when one of those mothers (Verenaerin) is a nurse.

I stand by what I said previously: In a healthy society, I believe breasts would no more be sexualized than a woman's waistline or hands or any other functional, beautiful, feminine part of her body. Would they have sex appeal? Sure, I think so, but I think that it would have to do with the way they were presented. Popping out of a push-up bra under an extremely low-cut blouse, obviously provocative. Being used for their natural function, obviously not provocative. The fact that conversations like the one above keep on happening is insane.

Mind you, I don't blame men (or women) for being uncomfortable with breastfeeding in public -- it's a hallmark of our perverted society and not their fault. But they shouldn't assume that it's natural and healthy to feel this way.

[Satori]

It has also occurred to me that while Verenaerin understandably expresses frustration with single men expounding on a subject of which they are wholly ignorant (breastfeeding), many women on this board are guilty of the same. When women tell men that they should be able to "just look away" or exercise self-control when surrounded by scantily clad women, they are exhorting men on a subject of which they know nothing, namely male struggles with chastity. Just as we rightly expect single men to pay attention to what experienced mothers and fathers tell them about the care of infants, men have the right to expect women to not be dismissive and insensitive when they share about their struggles with chastity.

[StrictCatholicGirl]

I do not understand what temperance has to do with modesty.  You write as if we determine the right amount of clothing by finding a point between too much and too little.  But it does not make sense to talk of too much clothing to be modest.  Nor does it makes sense to think about finding the mean between provoking too much lust or provoking too little lust.  I do not see how seeking a mean is a useful concept at all for determining what is modest.

Jayne, I was only trying to point out the immodesty of extremes.  In the traditional seven virtues, modesty falls under TEMPERANCE.  Temperance is defined as moderation in action, thought, or feeling; control of excesses. It involves self-restraint in our emotions and impulses and judgments of others.
 
I do want to clarify what I said about "desensitization not being such a bad thing."  I was not referring to everyone, of course, but only the over sensitive or over scrupulous.  Like Scipio says, there are reasons people become over sensitive - which is not sinful in and of itself - but such people will have a more difficult way to go in life. 

Again, we have so many of these threads because a minority wish to impose on the world their own personal definitions of modesty, beauty, and femininity.  Quis said to ditch the "natural look" and the midriffs and short hair and look like Grace Kelly.  Colleen Hammond tells us to wear skirts only.  But I can be feminine and modest and beautiful in my knee pants and short cute Louise Brooks hair cut.  I dress appropriately for my age, weight, and environment, and with no affront to my Catholic religion.  As long as people here keep suggesting that my attire is improper, I'm going to keep responding to these threads.

[Rosarium]

For myself, my barometer is my husband. Maybe for others it is their mother, or priest, or a trusted friend. I don't think we will ever agree on what is ok or not. We are all so damaged and poisoned by the onslaught of our culture from the day we are born.

I can't help but think that your husband is very sensitive to atmospheric pressure....

As for what affects men, I personally do not have the slightest problem with a woman breastfeeding in public. Although, I do not really have a problem with breasts at all except that I know it is socially inappropriate here to bare them.

[Antonius Josephus]

I don't mind single men having an opinion about women breastfeeding in public, but I do mind when they keep on insisting that bottles are the way to go for public feedings despite having the problem with this explained to them by experienced mothers.

Or an experienced father. Ours is closing in on ten months and there were many times when public breastfeeding was the only option. My wife just grabbed a blanket, tossed it over her and kiddo, and breastfed. Never had a problem with it from anyone, and the baby always came up happy

I stand by what I said previously: In a healthy society, I believe breasts would no more be sexualized than a woman's waistline or hands or any other functional, beautiful, feminine part of her body. Would they have sex appeal? Sure, I think so, but I think that it would have to do with the way they were presented. Popping out of a push-up bra under an extremely low-cut blouse, obviously provocative. Being used for their natural function, obviously not provocative. The fact that conversations like the one above keep on happening is insane.

Amen. Everything in modern society is sexualized, and that's part of the problem. A woman can't be looked at without being examined for various points of arousal and then judged accordingly, and the same in turn goes for us guys (though not nearly to the same degree, I'd think). Your average man who is thinking too often with the wrong body part can't look at a woman and not see something he has to evaluate for sexiness and titillation. It's something we have to train ourselves out of; Lord knows I have a long past with lust and only recently am actually conquering it, praise God.

Mind you, I don't blame men (or women) for being uncomfortable with breastfeeding in public -- it's a hallmark of our perverted society and not their fault. But they shouldn't assume that it's natural and healthy to feel this way.

I agree. People don't want to consider that they may be wrong.

[StrictCatholicGirl]

Everything in modern society is sexualized, and that's part of the problem. A woman can't be looked at without being examined for various points of arousal and then judged accordingly, and the same in turn goes for us guys (though not nearly to the same degree, I'd think). Your average man who is thinking too often with the wrong body part can't look at a woman and not see something he has to evaluate for sexiness and titillation. It's something we have to train ourselves out of; Lord knows I have a long past with lust and only recently am actually conquering it, praise God.

Exactly.  That's what I was talking about.  Good for you.

[Magnificat]

Everything in modern society is sexualized, and that's part of the problem. A woman can't be looked at without being examined for various points of arousal and then judged accordingly, and the same in turn goes for us guys (though not nearly to the same degree, I'd think). Your average man who is thinking too often with the wrong body part can't look at a woman and not see something he has to evaluate for sexiness and titillation. It's something we have to train ourselves out of; Lord knows I have a long past with lust and only recently am actually conquering it, praise God.

Exactly.  That's what I was talking about.  Good for you.

This makes sense.   


I wonder if it would work on the bathing suit thread? 

[StrictCatholicGirl]

I wonder if it would work on the bathing suit thread? 

I don't know.  I didn't read it.  I've always been a bit self-conscious about my own body so I wear a one-piece or Long T-shirts.  But other people's bodies don't bother me.

[Dust]

First off, thanks for starting a thread to attempt a reasonable discussion of this.  But why is this thread in the women's forum if we didn't want it to turn into nastiness about bikinis (and apparently breastfeeding too)?  This could very easily fall into the Catholic discussion, theological debate, philosophy, or pig roast...  But I digress...

The argument has been raised by both the moderation folks and Scipio types that what should matter is whether or not you are calling attention to yourself.  I suppose that this argument could even be made as one against being fashionable in so far as it may attract attention, and that the only solution is to wear a frumpy burka, and just get a couple awkward glances before being ignored.  While I am using a little hyperbole here, bear with me.

What does fashion typically do?  Well one of two things: 1) gain some practical benefit, like comfort and mobility or durability, or 2) attract attention, usually sexually at some level though it could also be attention to political or social ideas.  Examples of the first category would be baggy pants, jeans, cargo pockets, knee patches, women getting rid of corsets, etc.  The second category would include bikinis, mini skirts, excessively tight pants, etc.  Most clothing has some elements of both.  For example, the first women to cut their skirts a little shorter may have attacted attention from guys because they were showing some ankle or (*gasp!*) calf, but they also were able to move around easier without worrying about tripping.  Jeans started as work-wear, then became an act of rebellion when a different group started to wear them.  They became something practical again when the shock was gone.

Maybe I'm talking in circles here, but the point is, while some cultures regard certain items as shocking and scandalous, and it is simply the culture which deems it that way, other items have really only one purpose, and that is to draw attention to a part of the body.  This is especially dangerous when it is a part which is also a prominent difference between men and women.  The best example of this would be the sexual-ization of women's breasts, as was already pointed out.  But I would point out that this is not always the case. 

More often modesty is mostly a function of how we present and carry ourselves.  Clothing can be a part of this in as far as it is revealing or affect the shape of our bodies, or hinders our movement, but more often it is psychological.  This is where Scipio's time/culture/place argument has some truth to it.  We associate clothing with certain things, and it effects our behavior.  Some people suggest that if you work at home you should still dress as though you were headed to the office, in order to get into the right frame of mind.  Does what you wear effect your ability to type?  Probably not, but it does effect what you do psychologically.  The idea is that pajamas inspire you to be lethargic, while a clean pressed shirt inspires you to work.  How much truth is there to this? Hard to say, but it likely depends on the person.  But I think we can be certain that if someone was used to going to work in their pajamas, dressing up while working at home would have little impact their performance

Also, how what we see, including how others dress, effects us.  So we should at least realize how our attire effects others.  We can effect some small part of society around us.  Does dressing more covered than those around us turn heads?  Maybe, but people can become used to these things incredibly quickly.  No matter what we do, we will be noticed.  Chances are, our clothing will be a small part of what is noticed compared to how we walk and talk.

Really though, if you feel like you are exposing yourself you are likely carrying yourself more provocatively too.  I've seen two girls, in one location, one who behaved perfectly normal in a miniskirt, while the other flaunted herself in something much longer.  Can a person's psychological triggers in this regard change?  Sure.  Just realizing you behave different dressed one way may be enough to dull the effects.  But until your triggers change, the simplest thing to do in dress in a way that encourages good behavior.  If something feels awkward that happens to cover nicely and look modest on its own, you will likely look awkward to others in how you carry yourself, and not particularly modest.

[JayneK]

I stand by what I said previously: In a healthy society, I believe breasts would no more be sexualized than a woman's waistline or hands or any other functional, beautiful, feminine part of her body.

From what I have read, I gather that women's breasts are generally an erogenous zone.  I doubt that this would be a result of socialization.  I think it has a physiological basis.  If so, to some extent, the sexualization of breasts comes from nature and the situation is not quite the same as that of hands or waistlines.